Pre-motions; The 'Fireman's Ladder'

[Bishop]

OMR - You might want to put your back down a bit and lay off the !!!!!!'s. If nothing else you are coming off as confrontational or even hysterical in your disagrement with Hal's teachings.

From where I'm sitting in the cheap seats of this forum, Hal has presented information to us many times. Some of it I've found useful and some of it wasn't for me or my daughter. You, I don't recall you presenting anything for consideration other than your opinion of how others are doing things wrong. You might strive to discuss things with folks differently, or not. Just sayin...

And lest I loose my reputation for being catty...the best in the world don't do these things is because they are still trying to fix the leaps and crow hops in thier motion and learn how to stride in the pitching lane without loosing contact with the pitchers plate during thier pre-motion.

 

[Hustle Coach]

My dd uses a frontload del. Its not that hard to change how far up you go, in what hal is calling the ladder, and how fast you do it. Our Del. starts at the same spot, at the waist, so her timing is still the same. If we have a girl screwing around in the box ,she can pitch without going up the ladder. We do get girls called on leaving early on the bags. But i think thats more from the frontload, keeping the ball in the mit with no back arm swing to time the pitcher. Plus in indiana i havnt seen anybody with this del. so it throws the girls off a little. We use this more for hiding the ball than timing, but it does work in certain situations.

 

[Old Man River]

Did you see Joan Joyce's video from the other thread. Watch it and pay attention. She describes the three wind ups THAT SHE USED. Windmill, figure 8 and slingshot. She used them all and she also said they have been around longer than her and she was in an era before me. SO, I did not invent these things I teach and write about. Others before you and I came up with them out of neccessity.

Now, my question for you; WHY IS IT THE 'BEST IN THE WORLD' as you describe them, FEEL THEY HAVE TO CHEAT TO GAIN THE ADVANTAGE? Answer me that. Every single tactic I teach and outline in my books ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL!




I didnt need to crow hop, hop, skip or leap to defeat the Major Division National Champions when my team played them early in 1980. Joaquin Construction vs Dave Abel Insurance, both out of Modesto, California. It was the Inaguaral game for Rainbow Fields, if you would like to look it up. I shut them out 5-0.

I did that pitching legally.

SNEAKY SOFTBALL PITCHING.COM

CT-TEXAS.COM [/QUOTE

Hal,
Yourself and Joan Joyce are exceptions to the norm ! That's all I'm really trying to say! All we have to do is look at all the Olympic pitchers since 1996 and all the college pitchers who pitched in the college world series since whenever to get my drift. Could you say you are creating a "style" rather than an "absolute". If you give me your web-site or an e-mail address, I would communicate with you more personally- I know much about Dave Abel and Joaquin etc. and I apologize for any harshness I've thrown you're way!

 

[Old Man River]

OMR - You might want to put your back down a bit and lay off the !!!!!!'s. If nothing else you are coming off as confrontational or even hysterical in your disagrement with Hal's teachings.

From where I'm sitting in the cheap seats of this forum, Hal has presented information to us many times. Some of it I've found useful and some of it wasn't for me or my daughter. You, I don't recall you presenting anything for consideration other than your opinion of how others are doing things wrong. You might strive to discuss things with folks differently, or not. Just sayin...

And lest I loose my reputation for being catty...the best in the world don't do these things is because they are still trying to fix the leaps and crow hops in thier motion and learn how to stride in the pitching lane without loosing contact with the pitchers plate during thier pre-motion.

Mr. Bishop, I guess I do get quite reactionary, etc. more than I often realize and perhaps I need to be more constructive; but a question I would ask ( that I often ask my students ) is what makes what we're saying about pitching "right". I ask my students to study pitchers like : Osterman and Tincher, because they come the closest to the type of ball movement, power, accuracy and form of the best pitchers in the world from the past with the idea that we need " models " to establish a standard. So, I guess I do get hysterical when we get away from teaching kids how to efficiently deliver the ball with the rise, drop and change as the priority rather than getting into side eddies that are not modeled by our best. I am listening to you when you challenge me to " strive to discuss things with folks differently " and I need to work at being more kind from my own cheap seat. Thank you for your candor!!!!!!!!

 

[halskinner]

"Hal,
Yourself and Joan Joyce are exceptions to the norm ! That's all I'm really trying to say! All we have to do is look at all the Olympic pitchers since 1996 and all the college pitchers who pitched in the college world series since whenever to get my drift. Could you say you are creating a "style" rather than an "absolute". If you give me your web-site or an e-mail address, I would communicate with you more personally- I know much about Dave Abel and Joaquin etc. and I apologize for any harshness I've thrown you're way"

I think Joan is in a class all by herself and she is a very 'Classy' gal too. Did you notice how she gave great credit to Bertha Ray Tickey in her video? Lot a class that gal!

Throwing with more than one wind up has happened for many years. Apperently it felt just as normal to do that as it did for me and most all of the students I worked with. Most of the time, that was WHY I got a new student, becuse they or their parents saw one of my students using these types of tactics and soundly defeating the other teams. Do I think I am, or was, creating a pitching style? No, not at all. I was giving even my youngest students SOMETHING that they could take to their games and help them win. I wanted them to experience winning right from the start.

My number one priorities were the same as most other instructors. What made me very different in the way I taught the basics is that I had to teach myself when I was youmg. My methods were sometimes VERY different than other instructors because of that. And, many times my methods were far more effective and they learned them alot faster too.

One instructor would occassionally refer a student to me just to work on one particular thing. I remember one 16-year old that came to me from another instructor to try and build speed. I watched her warm up and used my method for teaching consistency in the stride and I lengthened her stride by almost a foot. Her Uncle was catching for her, as he had almost always done at the other facility as her dad worked swingshift when her lessons would be. She immediately, from the first pitch, picked up 10 - 12 MPH. After three pitches he set the glove down and said "Sorry Hal, I cant catch her anymore". Worked with her for two or three more lessons and sent her back to the other instructor as I was 40 miles away, or so.

I do not consider myself as God's gift to pitching or anything of the sort. I am an expert at watching a pitchers motions and picking them to pieces, that is how I learned to pitch, by watching older pitchers im their games, HUNDREDS of them.

When I started teaching I found out the way I taught myself was quickly learned by an 8 or 10 year old. It should be easy, I developed many of those as a young kid myself.

When I said "Hysterical' in my first reply to you, I did not mean that YOU were going out of your head or anything like that, I said that because what you said made ME laugh alot.

I used some of my tactics while with Joaquin. Fortunatekly for me, I threw fast enough that I could use most of them so subtly that only my catcher knew something was strange when it came to what he saw ME do and what he saw the ball do. Nothing was ever in synch. He would tell the other guys that "Bopper never throws to the exact same spot twice in a row and he never throws the same exact speed twice in a row. He is the toughest guy to catch I have ever caught for."

Hal

 

[StacieM]

Interesting discussion. I can completely understand the concept of staying consistent and in a rhythm as a pitcher. The idea that doing so will help create consistency in pitching makes sense.

HOWEVER when I think about what we expect from players throwing overhand:
being able to throw from various distances - throwing from just 20ft vs throwing from 60+ feet
throwing at a target straight ahead vs one off to the side
throwing from the infield vs throwing from the outfield
throwing to various targets of various heights
throwing one hop vs no hop
etc, etc, etc

Some throws require more wind up; others less, but we still expect and work toward consistency in delivering the ball accurately to the target.

And yet with pitchers, who's always pitch from the same rubber to a target in front of them it's suddenly scary to change the windup a bit?

Just something to think about.

I can't personally say how simple or easy it is to execute in a game because I have never done it. But I certainly think there are pitchers out there who could learn to use concepts such as these. Even simple changes can greatly increase difficulty for the batter. So if a pitcher can understand it an incorporate it (even at a modified maybe less "extreme" level) it could help them quite a bit!

 

[halskinner]

This is just one of many tactics a pitcher can use at any age level. The greatest thing about this one is that it happens in the pre-motions, before the pitch even starts. It has ZERO effect on mechanics because the pitch hasnt started yet, the hand have not seperated yet!



You have 20 seconds to release the ball for delivery when you receive it in the circle. You have 10- seconds to deliver the pitch once you bring the hands together. WHY NOT USE THAT TIME TO YOUR ADVANTAGE?

WHO'S TEAM ARE YA ON ANYWAY????

 

[inde53546]

I'd be interested to see some video of some of these. Get your camera out Hal.

 

[halskinner]

Hi Inde,

Dont have any video of those. I do have a statement from a college pitcher from Australia that came over for 2 days training.

"I had thought that I would wait till I got back to the USA and started working out with a catcher before I mixed it all up like we had been practicing. HOWEVER, last night we were playing a very obnoxious team who thought they were all very smart and they started to get to me. SO, I started to bring in a few of the pitching tactics in your book. BOY WAS IT FUN!!!!!

They must have thought I had gone mad! They had all seen me pitch numerous times since I got back and then all of a sudden I started doing this late in the game and with good results. Hal, you should have seen my Dad's reaction- he thought it was great and I don't think that I have had so much fun pitching for a long time!! Plus, they never even got good contact for the rest of the game.

I just had to let you know how it all went. I hope everything is going good for you and you are keeping well. Thanks for everything."
Delaney, Aussie Pitcher

 

[Jojo]

We were at a state tournament one year and there was a pitcher there who was pretty decent, but she had this outrageous windup. She would push her hips back and forth, then swing her arms up and down, side to side and every which way before bringing them together and completing the pitch.

She was frustrating a lot of batters and every coach was asking the umpire to call her illegal, but he stated all her pre-motion was prior to her presentation so it was allowable.

It came down to her team and our team for the state championship, by then she was no longer distracting to our batters, but annoying and I never saw them hit harder that whole tourny.

I've also witnessed a pitcher who would make more aggressive pre-motions after a strike-out which inevitably ended up making the hitters hit harder as well.

Sometimes you'll have to watch out if your change or un-contempory pre-motions are distracting or just adding fuel to a batters fire.

I don't mind a "change-up" in the pre-motion, I would just suggest they be kept minimalistic, or only every once in awhile.