Pitching advice - missing a lot left/right - form improvements

[Rick Pauly]

Rick ... very good.

Would you say that the hip rotation leading shoulder rotation also results in some ER, setting up more effective IR? Said another way, do you feel that the hip rotation leading shoulder rotation leads to what KenB refers to as 'lag' .... and the observance of the palm tilting somewhat more palm-up momentarily?

Yes, I think they are interrelated.

I think of the hip rotation creating shoulder rotation is similar to a plyometric movement......where the intent is to create a rapid "stretch-shortening" of the core transverse muscles to generate an explosive movement.

 

[corlay]

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hip rotation creating shoulder rotation

Rick,

Say you have a young pitcher who has this exactly backwards.
How would you go about fixing?

My dd associates "getting open" with her lower half, and not so much the upper. She is a pitcher whos throwing shoulder very much likes to "see" the target. Doesn't throw across body very well, and tends to rotate shoulder too far closed and release too far out in front.


Seeking help from our beloved professional next weekend, and am confident he can/will help (its been a month since our last session... Too long!) but since you just put into words what Ive been seeing wrong lately, i was curious what your response might be.

Thanks!

 

[Rick Pauly]

I am going to take a shot at this......I assume your definition of "open" is when the hips/shoulders have rotated to parallel with the powerline.
The best method I have used (and it is not full proof) is to do some "dry" pitching drills. Dry meaning without a ball. Have DD set up in the "k" position with hips and shoulders parallel with the powerline. Now have her simulate pitching from that position........but have her snap/rotate her hips to 45 degrees of the PL and have her stop and instantly recoil the hips. Do not put any effort into rotating the shoulders....let the hip rotation dictate what the shoulders do. Understand this is a drill intended to get the pitcher to feel the hip snap and deceleration/stop prior to release. If done correctly, the shoulders will close only to 45 degrees.
After some reasonable success have her do this with a ball.
The idea that the hip rotation stops prior to and thru release is a difficult concept to grasp.....but is what happens with high level pitchers. It is equally difficult to relate this to shoulder rotation. When we tell kids to rotate they think full circle....gotta be careful in our descriptions/definitions.
Hope this helps.....it is really difficult to describe in writing. Guess I'll have to make a video on how to do this drill.

Rick,

Say you have a young pitcher who has this exactly backwards.
How would you go about fixing?

My dd associates "getting open" with her lower half, and not so much the upper. She is a pitcher whos throwing shoulder very much likes to "see" the target. Doesn't throw across body very well, and tends to rotate shoulder too far closed and release too far out in front.


Seeking help from our beloved professional next weekend, and am confident he can/will help (its been a month since our last session... Too long!) but since you just put into words what Ive been seeing wrong lately, i was curious what your response might be.

Thanks!

 

[YOCOACH]

The one thing I noticed immediately was the huge glove swim. Although I'm not a PC in any way, shape or form, do the proffessionals not think this may contribute to the lack of consistency or is this a symptom af the bigger problem?

 

[ArkFastpitch]

The one thing I noticed immediately was the huge glove swim. Although I'm not a PC in any way, shape or form, do the proffessionals not think this may contribute to the lack of consistency or is this a symptom af the bigger problem?

Curious myself about this. DD has a major glove swim problem. So much so that it will at times cause her to close her shoulders square to the catcher.

 

[Ken B]

I don't see glove swim as a problem that needs fixing. I think the glove arm does what it does to balance out the rest of the body. Give the glove arm a purpose and glove swim goes away or is minimized. Use the glove arm to drive out to the target, then pull it down in sync with release. Up together, down together.

 

[Ken B]

Rick ... very good.

Would you say that the hip rotation leading shoulder rotation also results in some ER, setting up more effective IR? Said another way, do you feel that the hip rotation leading shoulder rotation leads to what KenB refers to as 'lag' .... and the observance of the palm tilting somewhat more palm-up momentarily?

I think the gif of Ueno demos this well.

 

[Rick Pauly]

Below is a clip of what I believe is an efficient use of the glove/glove arm. As noted in the quotes below, the young lady does have a significant glove swim which does cause her shoulders to close too much/too early. I've seen worse and this situation is correctable but not easily.
A couple thoughts about the action the glove hand/arm should make in the pitching motion:
1. IMO the glove should not drive directly out toward the catcher.....as you see in the video below it drives out/up/around in a smooth non stopping motion. I call it "glove whirl". I feel that often pitchers are instructed to perform a stabbing motion at the catcher/where the glove drives straight out, reaches its peak at around 3 o'clock and then stops and changes direction to a downward pull....IMO this is not a fluid movement and in some cases may cause the push foot to perform a leap.
2. I do believe that the glove whirl does and should aid in the closing action of the shoulders.....BUT it should not be the primary action causing closing......the hip rotation should be primary.

Curious myself about this. DD has a major glove swim problem. So much so that it will at times cause her to close her shoulders square to the catcher.

 

[jryan15]

Someone suggested getting the arm to contact the hip.......I would go much farther than that. I believe the forearm should make "brush interference" with the side of the thigh all the way down to withing 1-2 inches above the wrist joint.....similar to this video clip.
Your DD is going to experience significant location variation because of the gap she has between her forearm and thigh. Her release point is going to vary because her arm is swing in mid air with minimal stabilization. To correct this will take tons of short distance backward chaining.....this should be part of every warm up she does. A simple tip......it will be extremely difficult to correct this from full distance/full energy.
Also, your DD seems to be forcing shoulder rotation. I will see if I have a video I can post to show how the shoulder rotation actually comes to a near stop at time of release.

Thanks so much for the feedback Rick and others! That zoomed view of the forearm at release is fantastic. When I watched the video of the side view, I could not see the forearm running into the back of the thigh like this. This should really be helpful in showing DD what to work on. I am concerned that the tilt angle that DD has during release (see image below) will be a problem when trying to make contact with the back of the thigh. The other pitchers referenced are much more vertical than DD. Does anyone have any ideas of what might be the root cause to workout, or is this something that could work itself out by fixing the release problem?

You are definitely right about the forced shoulder rotation. She can turn it off when I give her a hard time about it. I think it keeps creeping back in as a secondary power source. I will continue to monitor this and will work with her to eliminate it.

Thanks!

 

[drc9805]

Good advice and good learning. She does look like her elbow/forearm is bent in a manner that is putting the ball over her head towards the right side of her body which will affect her arm circle and the way she slides her back foot out to the right so far seems to be attributing to her sideways lean and could be one reason the gap between her forearm and thigh is so big. I will say it looks like to me she is close and her IR looks really good!!!