Peel Drop

[flamethrower]

lol. boardmember is owning some folks again. very good post and explanation sir

 

[BoardMember]

lol. boardmember is owning some folks again. very good post and explanation sir

I'm not trying to own anyone FT. I'm just trying to pass "good" information on for everyones improvement, both at teaching, and understanding the hows/whys of what we are actually teaching.......

It seems like many, even with the best intentions and/or personal experience, don't really understand what it is that creates high level mechanics........Even though they WANT to teach them.

Stuff like "the fingers move up/down the front of the ball" tells me that many "good instructors" need a better education on what it is ACTUALLY happening........

Which can ONLY help them improve on their own teaching methods.......Producing better pitchers.......And improve OUR sport in the long run........

That's my ONLY goal.......

 

[3DD'sDAD]

Boardmember, thank you for the explanation in plain and simple terms, along with video. It confirms my opinion on the subject. your posts are always interesting and easy to understand. Now on to a related subject; an earlier poster in this thread asked for drills for the drop. Do you have any suggestions for drills that would help teach the timing of release etc for a drop. My DD throws a decent drop using IR and I would like to help her get it a little better. Any suggestions always welcome.

 

[BoardMember]

Boardmember, thank you for the explanation in plain and simple terms, along with video. It confirms my opinion on the subject. your posts are always interesting and easy to understand. Now on to a related subject; an earlier poster in this thread asked for drills for the drop. Do you have any suggestions for drills that would help teach the timing of release etc for a drop. My DD throws a decent drop using IR and I would like to help her get it a little better. Any suggestions always welcome.

Which drop. I/R or Peel?

EDIT:

Oh, my bad. I just saw you asked about I/R drop..........

There are a few things that will help insure that the I/R drop is most effective.........

First of all, I/R drop is most effective with the COM (center of mass) slightly foward of the mid-line. Slightly "up on the front foot" so to speak.

The front throwing side action should include a "lift" of the deltoid/shoulder region to insure you get a good "peel" up the back of the ball. If you go back to pages 1-2 and review the pitches of both Cat AND Lisa Fernandez, you'll see this "lifting action" in the shoulder region. They also both get the COM over the front side to insure the trajectory is "level to down", vs. "up to down"........

While the hand doesn't REALLY travel over the top of the ball.........A complete pronation (turn over) of the throwing hand after release will help the start of the direction of spin properly pre-release........

Some like to shorten the stride a bit to make sure momentum gets the COM gets more on top of the front foot just prior to release......

 

[redhawkridge]

Boardmember:
Are you the same poster who said in a different string that a riseball really doesn't rise -- it just doesn't drop as much as a normal fastball? And this was determined from studies of super slow speed video that show a "rise" simply maintains a flatter trajectory that is mistaken for rising? Just curious.
Jim

 

[BoardMember]

Boardmember:
Are you the same poster who said in a different string that a riseball really doesn't rise -- it just doesn't drop as much as a normal fastball? And this was determined from studies of super slow speed video that show a "rise" simply maintains a flatter trajectory that is mistaken for rising? Just curious.
Jim

Actually Jim, that was SSarge who presented that study.

I'm the one who refuted that study with the use of pixel mapping technology that showed that the rise actually did rise just a bit, but earlier then the naked eye preceived the hop. It rose up off it's intended plane JUST A LITTLE early after release. Then continued to NOT FALL as much as the human mind calculates a normal drop rate from gravity........What happens basically is the ball is released on a slight upward trajectory creating what I call "the intended plane"......My study showed that the did actually rise just slightly above it's intended plane........Early.......And then didn't fall at the expected rate from normal gravitational pull.........

So yes I was invovled in the discussions Jim.........

 

[Old Man River]

Boardmember

As you may recall, I agreed with you very strongly that the fingers are not going down the front of the ball when throwing the drop; but then later declared that I thought that the fingers did go up the front of the ball on the rise at the finish and across the front on the curve at the finish- I STAND CORRECTED !!! It just feels that way !! Good Work ! Good Video and I don't care if you DO OWN ME !! In addition as I think about this , I'm recognizing that the visual I've been creating thru the years about that "lifting feeling" is possibly being over-emphasized - needing instead to emphasize more the downward pull on the back of the ball and finishing properly thru the bottom of the ball. Also, would you agree that cutting under the ball for the rise causes a loss of speed ( I'm talking about true rise spin ) in comparison to throwing throwing a peel drop?? What I see most of the time on T.V. are high "ramp balls" that are being called rise balls.

 

[BoardMember]

Boardmember

As you may recall, I agreed with you very strongly that the fingers are not going down the front of the ball when throwing the drop; but then later declared that I thought that the fingers did go up the front of the ball on the rise at the finish and across the front on the curve at the finish- I STAND CORRECTED !!! It just feels that way !! Good Work ! Good Video and I don't care if you DO OWN ME !! In addition as I think about this , I'm recognizing that the visual I've been creating thru the years about that "lifting feeling" is possibly being over-emphasized - needing instead to emphasize more the downward pull on the back of the ball and finishing properly thru the bottom of the ball. Also, would you agree that cutting under the ball for the rise causes a loss of speed ( I'm talking about true rise spin ) in comparison to throwing throwing a peel drop?? What I see most of the time on T.V. are high "ramp balls" that are being called rise balls.

River, there's no doubt in my mind that more focus on "down the back and under" produces a better trajectory for rise then "up the front".........

When I was a young pitcher, I remember working SO HARD on getting the ball to come out "the back of my hand" so to speak. Like "behind my index finger".

One day I ran across a very talented pitcher by the name of Mike Allen at a tournament, and we talked about our crafts over a beer, and I'd told him I was struggling to keep the rise in the zone, HE told me that I was TOO focused on "up the front" vs. "down the back and under".......From that day forward, I had a rise I could throw anywhere in the zone, including the dreaded "low rise".......I was 22 at the time........Over 30 years ago.........

Although I agree in theory about the slight speed loss, I've had MANY very good male pitchers insist that rise was their fastest pitch..........I know for me, it was slightly off speed from my curveball for example, because I was shutting down the internal turn of my wrist in favor of keeping my fingers working outward from my body and at a right angle to the target to impart backspin...........

Although I have to admit, when I started working "down the back and under" I felt like I threw rise with more velocity then I had in the past........

Regarding true peel, which I threw.........I used a "split finger" grip whereby I split my index and middle fingers as far apart as possible across a horizontal seem to the point you could almost push the ball through the gap.......The way, I could rip up as hard as I could, and the ball would still stay down in the zone.........Because I threw my peel this way, it was also slightly off speed as well, but dove down like a lead weight very late.

When I wanted a high velocity drop, I used I/R from the back of the ball to "shoot it" down and out.

That was by far my fastest pitch velocity wise.........I NEVER threw screw ball against the guys I played against..........My 3rd basemen would've quit.........LOL!

I did throw a "cut peel" that I moved down and in that was a safe left side grounder.......But a straight screw? No friggin way..........

 

[Old Man River]

River, there's no doubt in my mind that more focus on "down the back and under" produces a better trajectory for rise then "up the front".........


One day I ran across a very talented pitcher by the name of Mike Allen at a tournament, and we talked about our crafts over a beer, and I'd told him I was struggling to keep the rise in the zone, HE told me that I was TOO focused on "up the front" vs. "down the back and under".......From that day forward, I had a rise I could throw anywhere in the zone, including the dreaded "low rise".......I was 22 at the time........Over 30 years ago.........

Hey, you might be getting too close to home when you mention "Mike Allen". Please tell me he's not from northern Calif. Also I might add that at a Men's National Team try-out type of practice years ago, I had an ex-teammate tell of his experience in using a speed gun at this event where National caliber pitchers were consistently throwing their rise about 3 miles an hour or more SLOWER than when they were throwing their drop and he had a hard time believing it because of the difficulty of hitters catching up with it etc.

 

[BoardMember]

Hey, you might be getting too close to home when you mention "Mike Allen". Please tell me he's not from northern Calif. Also I might add that at a Men's National Team try-out type of practice years ago, I had an ex-teammate tell of his experience in using a speed gun at this event where National caliber pitchers were consistently throwing their rise about 3 miles an hour or more SLOWER than when they were throwing their drop and he had a hard time believing it because of the difficulty of hitters catching up with it etc.

Yep, Nor Cal........We're both from here..........Mike's dedication to the game was unmatched in the area........In other words, while he was running 10 miles a day past my house, I was getting married, having kids at a young age, and learning to take over a company.......Playing competitively when time permitted, vs. devoting my life to the game......What I was able to do was devote my time to teaching......Begining at age 25..........

Regarding rise, I'd assume hitters take a milli-second longer to react to rise. Which puts the ball on them quicker before the brain processes what's coming.......Which would explain why hitters don't catch up to rise as well as to pitches thet tend to react to gravity more naturally...........