Obstruction?

[Comp]

Here is the ruling from NFHS. They did change it slightly from what was originally sent to them as they added a runner on 2nd base, but that does not change the ultimate outcome of the ruling.

SITUATION 1: R1 is on second base. A ground ball is hit to F6, who makes an errant throw to F3, who cannot make the catch. The ball goes to the fence where F9 is in position to back up the play and quickly retrieves the ball. B2 sees that the ball is overthrown and attempts to turn the corner to head to
second base, and is obstructed by F3 who is attempting to retrieve the ball. The umpire signals and verbalizes obstruction. B2 realizes she cannot reach second base and returns safely to first base. R1 advances to third base. The ball is thrown back to F1, who is not in the circle. The base coach now tells B2 to break for second base due to the obstruction call. B2 runs toward second base, and the pitcher runs over and tags her half way between the bases. R1 remains on third base. RULING: The umpire returns B2 to first base as there was no subsequent play on a different runner. (2-36, 8-4-3b EXCEPTION 1) COMMENT: The umpire judged that B1 was obstructed between first base and second base. B1 has not satisfied an exception in Rule 8-4-3 and, therefore, cannot be put out between the two bases where she was obstructed.

 

[The Man In Blue]

OK, OK, I think I see where this went off the tracks and where I am citing another section of the rule ... and possibly changing the play.

I was understanding you to say you are giving her home on the second attempt ... my misunderstanding of where you are going.

If you read my initial thoughts, I said ...

If she actually went back to third and touched third base, I’m dropping the obstruction and she could be called out. (Unless I felt the obstruction prevented her from scoring initially.)

I was applying the fact that I thought she would have reached third base only, she had reached it safely, and then she attempted to advance beyond it. Normally in that situation the obstruction would be off. USA 5.B.3



Since the obstruction occurred after the base though, I do see what you are saying ... and thus we must chose which rule is going to take precedence ... she advanced beyond the base she would have safely obtained, which negates the obstruction (USA 5.B.3) or she is between the two bases (USA 5.B.1, exception a) and cannot be called out.

I am not sure that I am right. I’m not sure you are right either though.

You are citing an exception to a different rule (USA 5.B.1(a) or NFHS 8.4.3(a.1) than the rule I am citing (USA 5.B.3 or NFHS 8.4.3(b).

While you have posted the interpretation offered by NFHS, I am going to logically challenge their interpretation because of how their rule is written though, as it does provide some guidance as to what takes precedence ... The citation you are using is an EXCEPTION to 8.4.3(a), but it is not an exception from the rule I am citing, 8.4.3(b).

Obviously NFHS feels different based on the interpretation they issued, but personally I don’t think you can apply an exception from one rule to another rule. As I have said before, I take umbrage to using interpretations to promote a purpose rather than fixing the actual book language.

 

[Comp]

You are trying to pick and choose certain parts of certain citations to justify calling an out. There is no difference in this part of the rule between USA or NFHS. The rule you are trying to use in USA, 8-5-3-b is not a stand alone rule, you have to take the entire rule into account when coming up with a ruling. 8-5-B-1 is the lead off statement. An obstructed runner may not be called out between the 2 bases where obstructed. Every other rule after that must still take that statement into account. USA also has the exact same exception required to cancel the obstruction between the 2 bases. The runner must reach the base they would have and there must be a subsequent play on a different runner.

Nowhere did I ever state anything about awarding the runner home in the original play, my comments were all addressed at the fact that regardless of that runner returning to 3rd base and that being the base the umpire judged she would have reached she still cannot be called out if she attempts to advance and is put out before reaching home. She is still between the 2 bases where the obstruction occurred, there has been no subsequent play on a different runner, the obstruction is still in effect and the defense cannot put the runner out.

 

[Cagman]

So as a third base coach, if I have a girl rounding third and gets obstructed, I see the field umpires arm go out, is there any risk in sending her home - When that was what I was originally going to do had she not been obstructed?

If she is thrown out at home, would she either be awarded home safe or the umpire say she was obstructed and gets to go back to third? Is there ever an instance where she would be considered still out at home?

As a base coach, these decisions have to be made in a split second. If it is now in the hands of the ump to make a decision, I’m better off keeping her third, then discussing with the umpire that she should be awarded home based on the rule stated in this thread about no actual attempt at atvancing being needed?

 

[Comp]

There should be no risk in sending her home if the umpire knows the rule correctly. As long as the runner is still between the 2 bases where the obstruction occured even if she has reached the base the umpire judges to be the base she would have reached and there has been no subsequent play on a different runner they cannot be out out by the defense while they are still between those bases.

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[Cagman]

Thank you, that is my understanding between bases as well.

My issue is most obstruction at 12U is from an infielder standing on or near a base where no play is being made and the runner has to either run over them or stops and steps around them. So it’s a situation where I now have to quickly determinered if the FU saw the obstruction and if they can still make it home after losing all momentum.

 

[The Man In Blue]

Curious to hear from some of our other resident blues ...

 

[riverdawg]

OP Said "Was flattened by the shortstop on a ball hit to the gap." Did the shortstop make contact while in the act of fielding a batted ball or attempting to field a batted ball?? Isn't a defensive player allowed to field a batted ball without risk of getting called for OB??

 

[Comp]

Curious to hear from some of our other resident blues ...

What more do you want? You have the rule from all rulesets that spells out specifically what criteria have to be met to cancel obstruction when the runner is still between the 2 bases where it occurred and you have the case play from that states exactly what the rule does.

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[CHSUmp97]

Curious to hear from some of our other resident blues ...

I stand with Comp. This is a very common misconception among umpires. They can't comprehend that a runner who reaches a base they were protected to, and then leaves that base to advance to the next base, can maintain her protection.

But softball is unique when it comes to this whole "protection between the two bases where the obstruction occurred", and least in NFHS and USA (and maybe others where I don't umpire). There is a specific list of exceptions when the runner loses that protection (e.g., interference, passing another runner, missing a base, etc.) The other exception is when she reaches the base where she was protected, and then the defense makes a subsequent play on a different runner.

There are case plays that clearly support this concept. Runner from second gets slightly obstructed rounding third to go home on a single, she is protected between third and home, but she returns to third base. Umpire feels she would not have scored minus the obstruction. The defense then makes a play on the batter returning to first base after a wide turn, and the throw is wild. Runner then tries to score from third. She has lost her protection because of the play the defense made on the batter. If she's thrown out at home, she's out.

Same exact play, but instead of the defense making a play on the batter at first, they just throw the ball to the pitcher, and it gets away. Runner tries to score and is thrown out at home. She is still protected between third and home; she did not lose that protection because there wasn't a play made on a different runner. So she is sent back to third base since the umpire judged she would not have scored. Pretty simple concept.