Obstruction?

[Tex]

NFHS 8-4-3. . . A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when:
b. a fielder not in possession of the ball or not making an initial play on a batted ball, impedes the progress of a runner or batter-runner who is legally running bases. Obstructed runners are still required to touch all bases in proper order, or they could be called out on a proper live ball appeal by the defensive team. Should an act of interference occur following any obstruction, enforcement of the interference penalty would have precedence.
PENALTY: (Art. 3b) When any obstruction occurs (including a rundown), the umpire will signal a delayed dead ball. The ball will remain live.
a. If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction, a dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction will be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire's judgment, had there not been obstruction. An obstructed runner may not be called out between the two bases where she was obstructed.
c. When a runner, while advancing or returning to a base, is obstructed by a fielder who neither has the ball nor is attempting to make an initial play on a batted ball, or a fielder who fakes a tag without the ball, the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction, will be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire's judgment, had there been no obstruction.
Play Example: A runner is obstructed @ 2 base. At the time of obstruction, the umpire holds his arm out to their side and yells obstruction. At this moment, the umpire is protecting this runner either to 2nd, 3rd or home, but no one knows because the play is still on-going (live ball). Once the play has stopped (dead ball), the umpire will make state which base the obstructed runner is awarded to. If the base is 3rd, the runner goes to 3rd. If the base is home, the runner goes to home. Keep in mine, the game is still in dead ball time. Once all players have stopped and the umpires are in their proper spot for the next play, the home plate umpire will call or indicate live ball. Play is now live. This is important, because if any runner did not properly run the bases such as: the 2nd base obstructed runner (sent home by umpire) did not touch 3rd base on the way home, the defense can appeal the runner missing 3rd and the runner would be out. The run also would not count. This appeal can only be made during live ball, not dead ball.

 

[MTR]

I stand with Comp. This is a very common misconception among umpires. They can't comprehend that a runner who reaches a base they were protected to, and then leaves that base to advance to the next base, can maintain her protection.

And I will disagree.

 

[Comp]

The rule is very clear on what is required to cancel obstruction when the runner is still between the 2 bases where the obstruction occured and the case play from nfhs has been posted which states exactly what the rule does. So what exactly are you disagreeing with? In order to cancel the obstruction while still between the 2 bases the runner must reach the base they would have absent the obstruction and there must also be a subsequent play on a different runner. It is stated clearly in the rule.

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[CHSUmp97]

And I will disagree.

Here is a USA case play from its May 2014 Plays and Clarifications:

Play:

With two outs, R1 on 3B and R2 on 2B, B5 hits the ball to centerfield. After rounding 3B, R2 is obstructed and starts to return to 3B while F8 is throwing the ball home. The third base coach seeing the obstruction tells R2 to again return home. R2 does and is tagged by F2 before reaching the plate. The umpire declares R2 out because they had gone beyond the base that would have been reached had there been no obstruction.
Ruling: Incorrect procedure. R2 was obstructed between 3B and home and should have been protected between those bases unless one of Rule 8, Section 5B EXCEPTIONS has occurred. Once R2 was tagged out the umpire should have called “Dead Ball” and awarded R2 the base R2 would have reached had there been no obstruction. In this case it appears that R2 should have been placed back at 3B. Rule 8, Section 5B[1-4].

Sounds to me that USA is in agreement with NFHS regarding between-base protection. Since R2 didn't commit a violation which is listed as one of the Rule 8, Section 5B EXCEPTIONS, and the defense didn't make a subsequent play on another runner (another one of the EXCEPTIONS) after she returns to third, she is still protected between third and home. The fact that she returned safely to third has no bearing on the play unless there had been a subsequent play on another runner. That didn't happen.

 

[bmakj]

A runner cannot have both reached the base and still be between the bases. You cannot be both here and there.

Once the runner reaches the base she would have reached (not a base), the obstruction is off. There is nothing more to award.

heisenberg's cat certainly can (is?)

 

[Tex]

I left out an important fact, on purpose, to see if anyone would catch this omission. The instant the umpire calls and indicates "obstruction", the umpire has made his decision of protection of the obstructed runner to a certain base. The fielding errors by the defense such as: the ball going thru the fielder's legs, the fielder throwing the ball wildly to another fielder, etc. have no bearing on the umpire's decision. As we umpires would say, "Once the fielders stop playing around, we will let our decision be known.

 

[The Man In Blue]

I took some time away to see if I came back with the same perspective ... I did. Comp, my problem is that you just beat your points in these discussions, and you rarely discuss the point of contention. I apologize, but I am not a “because I said so” person. I’m not trying to antagonize you, just trying to learn the way I learn — by tearing things apart and looking at them from all angles.

Where I am having a problem with Comp’s interpretation is in saying the runner is “still between the two bases”. I don’t consider her to ”still be between the two bases” when she has safely returned to third base and stopped. She is on third base. (Note: “still” is not in the rule either way.)

At that point, advancing past third base — presumably the base she would have been awarded if tagged out initially (otherwise we are giving her home once the play dies) — kicks her out of the first part of the rule (that Comp is citing) and down to the next portion of the rule (that I am citing).

Comp did not address the tag-up scenario I presented where a runner is obstructed between 2nd and 3rd but has to return to first to tag up. The runner properly tags up while the ball is thrown away initially. F3 makes a play and the runner is tagged out while trying to advance: (a) between first base and second base; or (b) between second base and third base. I’m interested in hearing umpire’s thoughts on that.

The USA case play CHS provided is different in that the runner did not get back to the base, she changed direction and, as Comp says, is “still between the bases”.

The NFHS case play is the closest. That’s the way NFHS wants it called. Doesn’t mean I have to agree.

 

[The Man In Blue]

heisenberg's cat certainly can (is?)

Schrodinger’s Cat?

(Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principal)

 

[Comp]

Why would I address some off the wall highly unlikely scenario that has absolutely nothing to do with the play in question?

And regardless of what you may personally believe when a runner is obstructed until they go beyond the the forward base they are still between the 2 bases where the obstruction occurred regardless of touching the base the umpire judges to be the base they would have reached. What is so hard to understand about the rule? An obstructed runner cannot be out out between the 2 bases where the obstruction occured until they reach the base they would have and there must be a subsequent play on a different runner. Read it for exactly what it states, not what you want it to read. And the case play repeats exactly what the rule states.

And the USA case play states one of the exceptions must be met in order to cancel the obstruction. One of those exceptions is they must reach the base AND there must be a subsequent play on a different runner. Both have to be met, not just one.

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[bmakj]

Schrodinger’s Cat?

(Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principal)

college physics and P-Chem are FAR in rear view mirror for me, got my germans physicists mixed up