Obstruction Rule - Another question

[htg]

This happened in an NSA tournament this past weekend.
Nobody on base and a line drive hit into the gap in right center. The runner collides with the first baseman covering the bag as she rounds the bag. The runner proceeds towards second and then stops and goes back to first. She did not touch first base yet and then the runner sees the ball was over-thrown and takes off toward second. The defense recovers and the runner is tagged out. The base umpire calls her out and the home plate umpire rules her safe due to the obstruction. She stays at second.
My question is, when does the runner lose the protection of the obstruction? It is my understanding that a runner rounding a base and then colliding with the defensive player cannot be thrown out at the base they are proceeding to as long as they continue towards the base without going back or stopping. Once they stop or go back, they are fair game to be tagged out.

What is the correct call and what rule(s) are involved?
Please site the rule in your response.

 

[ctfastpitch]

Can't cite the rule off the top of my head (maybe one of the resident Blue's can), but I am pretty sure she is protected between 1B & 2B (doesn't matter if she stops and retreats), and she may be awarded more bases if the umpire feels she would have gotten there without the obstruction. If, however, she runs past 2B and tries to return, then she is liable to be tagged out.

 

[FPMark]

In ASA, (don't know if NSA is different) the call would be correct. According to Points of Emphasis 36 on obstruction; "If the ball is overthrown after obstruction, the runner may advance. The runner may not be called out between the two bases where they were obstucted." This is the exact wording in the rule book. I don't see anything about stopping, or going back any where. It does also say that if the runner missed a base, they could still be called out on an appeal, even after being awarded the base.

Losing the protection from obstruction only happens when the runner reaches the base the ump determines she would have reached without being obstructed, and a play is made on another runner.

 

[MTR]

Losing the protection from obstruction only happens when the runner reaches the base the ump determines she would have reached without being obstructed, and a play is made on another runner.

Speaking ASA

Not exactly. That is two separate instances. The protection is dropped when the OBS runner safely reaches the base the umpire determined s/he would have reached had the OBS not occurred.

Or the protection between two bases if they reached the base to which they would have been awarded and then is put out while trying to advance during a subsequent play on another runner. IOW, the second half is simply an exemption to the "cannot be put out between the two bases where the runner was obstructed" portion of Rule 8.5.B

 

[FPMark]

Not sure I understand the difference. So maybe an example would help.

In the OP, htg said the ball was hit to the gap in right center. The runner was obstucted rounding 1st, went toward second, stoped, came back to 1st because she missed it, then went to 2nd because the ball was over-thrown and was tagged out, but called safe because of the obstruction. We agree that was the correct call.

If the throw from the out fielder had not been over-thrown and the runner stayed at 1st, then the ball had been thrown home to attempt a play on a runner trying to score, the protection ends, and the runner could be thrown out at 2nd by the catcher. Runner reached the base (1st) the ump determined she would have reached without obstrution, and a play was made on another runner.

Is that correct?

 

[Coach JV]

obstruction should be called on a deep drive to the gap
as there is no play at 1B. If defense slows down runner
or blocks the 1B bag, prohibiting her from touching the base
with no play, runner is awarded 2B

 

[BretMan]

The NSA rule is written quite a bit differently than the ASA rule (no surprise there).

8-5: Baserunners are entitled to advance without liability to be put out:

b. When a fielder obstructs a baserunner from making a base unless the fielder is trying to field a batted ball or has the ball ready for a tag.

EFFECT: When obstruction occurs, the umpire shall call obstruction and signal a delayed dead ball.

1. If a play is being made on the obstructed runner or if the batter-runner is obstructed before reaching 1st base, the ball is dead and all runners advance without liability to be put out to the bases they would have reached, in the umpire's judgement, if there had been no obstruction.

2. If no play is being made on the obstructed runner at the time of obstruction, the play shall proceed until the play is completed. The umpire shall call "time" and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgement, will nullify the act of obstruction.

And that's it. They have nothing about being put out between the two bases where obstruction occured, subsequent plays, which bases the runner is "protected" to or what happens if she overruns that protection.

Going back to the OP...

"It is my understanding that a runner rounding a base and then colliding with the defensive player cannot be thrown out at the base they are proceeding to as long as they continue towards the base without going back or stopping. Once they stop or go back, they are fair game to be tagged out."

Your understanding has no basis in the actual rules. There's nothing in the rules about a runner "going back or stopping" becoming fair game to be tagged out. If she's obstructed, then subsequently tagged out, she is awarded whichever base the umpire judges she would have reached had she not been obstructed.

 

[FPMark]

The NSA rule is written quite a bit differently than the ASA rule (no surprise there).

8-5: Baserunners are entitled to advance without liability to be put out:

b. When a fielder obstructs a baserunner from making a base unless the fielder is trying to field a batted ball or has the ball ready for a tag.

EFFECT: When obstruction occurs, the umpire shall call obstruction and signal a delayed dead ball.

1. If a play is being made on the obstructed runner or if the batter-runner is obstructed before reaching 1st base, the ball is dead and all runners advance without liability to be put out to the bases they would have reached, in the umpire's judgement, if there had been no obstruction.

2. If no play is being made on the obstructed runner at the time of obstruction, the play shall proceed until the play is completed. The umpire shall call "time" and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgement, will nullify the act of obstruction.

And that's it. They have nothing about being put out between the two bases where obstruction occured, subsequent plays, which bases the runner is "protected" to or what happens if she overruns that protection.

Going back to the OP...

"It is my understanding that a runner rounding a base and then colliding with the defensive player cannot be thrown out at the base they are proceeding to as long as they continue towards the base without going back or stopping. Once they stop or go back, they are fair game to be tagged out."

Your understanding has no basis in the actual rules. There's nothing in the rules about a runner "going back or stopping" becoming fair game to be tagged out. If she's obstructed, then subsequently tagged out, she is awarded whichever base the umpire judges she would have reached had she not been obstructed.

If the umpire's judgement is she would not have made it to the next base without the obstruction, (out by 10 feet after a minor bump) could the ump call her out?... or just send her back to previous base? Speaking NSA or ASA either one. From the rules in ASA, it sounds like there is no posibility of calling the runner out. What about sending her back? In NSA, sounds like an out call may be possible.

 

[htg]

Thanks for all the great feedback.
This is why I posted the question.
Let me see if I have this correct then.
In NSA play, if there is obstruction, the safest play for the runner is to go to the closest base and stay there. Once the play is over, the umpire will assign her the base or bases the umpire judged the runner would have made had the obstruction not occurred. You would do this because there is a possibility that the umpire may call obstruction but determine that the runner would have still been tagged out if the obstruction would not have occurred. To this I would add, then why make the obstruction call?
In ASA play, if there is obstruction, the runner is protected from being called out between the two bases that the obstruction occurred. So the safest play for the runner would be to advance only the one base.

 

[MTR]

Not sure I understand the difference. So maybe an example would help.

In the OP, htg said the ball was hit to the gap in right center. The runner was obstucted rounding 1st, went toward second, stoped, came back to 1st because she missed it, then went to 2nd because the ball was over-thrown and was tagged out, but called safe because of the obstruction. We agree that was the correct call.

Yes.

If the throw from the out fielder had not been over-thrown and the runner stayed at 1st, then the ball had been thrown home to attempt a play on a runner trying to score, the protection ends, and the runner could be thrown out at 2nd by the catcher. Runner reached the base (1st) the ump determined she would have reached without obstrution, and a play was made on another runner.

Is that correct?

Yes. However, the ruling is only an exception to the part of the rule that states an OBS runner cannot be put out between the two bases where the runner was OBS. The first part of you statement involves all portions of the OBS rule.