Many coaches seem to stress, keep the shoulder in their, and the elbows start the swing and move somewhat independently of the shoulders without any "connection" with each other during the swing, and during the drill with just the bottom hand on the bat it seems many stress to keep the shoulder in to be able to stay through the ball, but on the model swing thread most of the hitters shoulders at contact are perpendicular to the plate, they seem to stay somewhat connected and rotate naturally with the arms, not keeping the shoulder in at contact. Is it something we just dont want them thinking about during the swing, or do we really want them to try and keep their shoulder in.
keeping the shoulder in
- Thread starter wannahit
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RayR
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Yes....because the alternative is ugly....
Hips turn the torso which turns the shoulders....they (shoulders) will, of course turn....but they should not be the "engine" of the swing....
The bottom hand swings done with shoulder rotation are not a good thing to watch....the goal is to use the legs and hips to be the engine and the hand/wrist/arm direct the barrel from the inside....since there is only one hand on the bat the shoulders do not have to turn to accomplish this drill....but if the player uses the shoulders the one handed swing will be out to in....
so the shoulder naturally wont stay "in" , we just dont want them to think its part of the engine driving the swing, and the one hand swing drill is just to train the bottom hand/arm its path to and through the ball, it just seems that drill doesnt feel much like an actual swing, it feels more like a linear swing drill, but i guess i get paranoid of them getting too armsy in the swing.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Wannahit … the upper torso (and shoulders) will be rotated towards the pitcher … the video you observed isn’t lying to you. The upper torso rotating forward will cause the arms to be rotated forward, which are physically connected to the hands, will be brought forward. To me, the term “keep your shoulder in” can be thought of as not having a goal of rotating the upper torso forward … of not powering the swing in that manner … of actually resisting the upper torso rotating forward … a means of keeping the hands back until swing initiation …. While at the same time creating a corner with the rear hip in preparation to throw the barrel … that is, the lower torso will in a sense rotate forward ahead of the upper torso, creating a stretch … the ‘stretch’ in ‘strech-and-fire’ … something that won’t happen if you lead with the upper torso.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
So let me ask you Wannahit ... what do you believe 'bottom-hand one-arm' swings help with in terms of building mechanics in preparation for a swing with two hands on the handle of the bat? When you perform 'bottom-hand one-arm' swings, what part of your swing are you focusing on in preparation to perform a swing with two hands on the bat?
IMO "keeping the front shoulder in" is another one of those cues that has been parroted around to the point where most just nod their head in agreement. I ran into this issue with my DD's middle school coach four years ago. He kept telling my daughter to keep her front shoulder in. He wanted her to keep her front shoulder in all the way into contact. What I eventually realized is that the coach viewed all swings from a linear hands-to-the-ball/extend arms into contact perspective. He would throw balls outside to my DD all the time to show her how she couldn't hit the outside pitch. It never worked because my DD has never had a problem pulling off the ball.
Which brings me to my main point. The body follows the head. Kids that fly open with the front shoulder are really pulling their head off the ball. The problem isn't the front shoulder, it's the head. If we are going to use the front shoulder as a guideline then every rotational hitter in MLB and fastpitch can be said to be not keeping their front shoulder in.
My experience is that it's near impossible to pull the head out with a good sequence. I've seen many kids who pull their head out and they all had gate type swings where they just turned the upper torso towards the 3rd base dugout (RH). I recall one player two years ago who had a beautiful natural baseball type swing. The dad put her in hitting lessons and she turned into a "tilt and turner". All I heard for the entire season is the dad telling her to stop pulling her head out.
How many players pull their head out and look up at the sky when throwing a ball sidearm?
Which brings me to my main point. The body follows the head. Kids that fly open with the front shoulder are really pulling their head off the ball. The problem isn't the front shoulder, it's the head. If we are going to use the front shoulder as a guideline then every rotational hitter in MLB and fastpitch can be said to be not keeping their front shoulder in.
My experience is that it's near impossible to pull the head out with a good sequence. I've seen many kids who pull their head out and they all had gate type swings where they just turned the upper torso towards the 3rd base dugout (RH). I recall one player two years ago who had a beautiful natural baseball type swing. The dad put her in hitting lessons and she turned into a "tilt and turner". All I heard for the entire season is the dad telling her to stop pulling her head out.
How many players pull their head out and look up at the sky when throwing a ball sidearm?
i actually eliminated using that drill because it seemed to create more bad habits than helped, and even watching slaught and many other qualified instructors perform it just doesnt seem the front arm follows a natural swing path in the drill, that the arm disconects unnaturally from the shoulder, but i have been wrong many times before and will be again soon
I also use the cue of keeping the front shoulder in, because it's a positive statement. I think what we're really trying to do is tell the hitter not to pull her front shoulder out at the start of the swing. But I would rather tell the hitter to do something rather than not to do something. Psychologists say the human brain can't process the word "don't," do if you say "don't pull your shoulder out" you're really telling the hitter to pull her shoulder out.
Another way I will put it is let the back shoulder knock the front shoulder out of the way. In other words, do nothing with the front shoulder, and let the force and path of rotation cause the front shoulder to move. At the end, the shoulders should be opened to the pitcher, more or less.
To me, it's all part of the idea of driving the back side up and around a firm front side rather than rotating at the center, which will again cause the front side to come out early and create spinning. As a coach you have to know what action you want to happen. From there it's a matter of finding a way to explain it to the player in a way she can comprehend and execute.
It's kind of like playing Pictionary. If your partner doesn't understand what you drew, no amount of pointing frantically at your drawing will make it any clearer. Hmmm, I feel a blog post coming on.
Another way I will put it is let the back shoulder knock the front shoulder out of the way. In other words, do nothing with the front shoulder, and let the force and path of rotation cause the front shoulder to move. At the end, the shoulders should be opened to the pitcher, more or less.
To me, it's all part of the idea of driving the back side up and around a firm front side rather than rotating at the center, which will again cause the front side to come out early and create spinning. As a coach you have to know what action you want to happen. From there it's a matter of finding a way to explain it to the player in a way she can comprehend and execute.
It's kind of like playing Pictionary. If your partner doesn't understand what you drew, no amount of pointing frantically at your drawing will make it any clearer. Hmmm, I feel a blog post coming on.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
'Red bold' above ..... that got a chuckle out of me. That's the problem with parroting cues and not understanding a good swing sequence.
The cue can be used to help someone swing within a good sequence ... or it can be misused to prevent someone from swinging within a good sequence. Helpful to understand how to use the cue from a perspective of promoting a good swing sequence.
With regards to head movement ... while I don't believe in restricting head movement prior to swing initiation, I do believe that there is benefit to restricting certain types of head movement during the actual swing.
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FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Same here. My question to you was sincere. I stopped performing ‘one-arm bottom-hand’ swings years ago as part of regular training, prep for BP and prep for games.
