IR vs Bullet

[Hillhouse]

Man10, I was going to say this in a PM because all the experts have spoken. So some of what I may say will be repetitive. I've said in the past that I have never fully read the IR threads so I cannot quote from them. But if your DD has bullet spin, I believe it means she's not using her elbow enough. The more whip of the elbow, the more the kinetic chain has to follow and the wrist and fingers follow suit. Typically, bullet spin is caused by turning the wrist at the release. This means the ball doesn't move, it stays flat. The thought of doing that on purpose perplexes me. Do you know how many times I went into a dugout after giving up 3 runs, on 2 HR's, a walk, etc. etc. etc. and telling the coach/catcher: "That thing is not moving today! The drop won't go down, the change is in the dirt, and my rise is 'not dropping less' <lol>)!!" Doing that on purpose would've been damaging to my career. Instead, I would grab someone between innings (providing I wasn't hitting a dinger that inning) and go behind the dug out to figure out what's wrong. Not enough whip? Over throwing? etc. Then I'd pray to my God that the next inning would be better and my team would pick me up.

The thought of bullet spin as a fastball period makes no sense. Correction: throwing a fastball PERIOD makes no sense. But, Bullet spin requires turning the wrist, not snapping it in the following of the whip of the elbow. Essentially, think of bullet spin like this: a lack of elbow. Ask your DD if her shoulder hurts after she pitches, if the answer is yes, it's likely because she's not whipping her elbow, using mostly shoulder, and turning the wrist at the release for the bullet spin. There is no possible way for that to be faster than a genuine kinetic whip of the elbow. Apply this to baseball: why are curveballs 20 mph slower than fastballs? Because the pitcher has to twist his wrist to put the spin on it. Same as a bullet spin softball pitcher... without the movement.

I'm not sure if I read this or not so forgive me if I did but, I thought I remember someone saying IR and spin are not necessary together. But they can be. If I had a nickle for every kid who I've seen at clinics and lessons, who's mom/dad has read this board, and they have a bullet spin of sorts. Let me digress: there's 2 bullet spins. One where the ball spins clockwise, the other where it is counter clockwise. The MAJORITY of bullet spinners have clockwise spin. The minority are the ones who come to lessons wanting to learn the IR thing so badly that they force the hand over before the release creating counter clockwise bullet spin. Literally rolling their hand over top of the ball at release, not letting the ball release and letting the body do it's natural course of action. While I don't want to put words in BM's mouth, I don't think that is what he was teaching in his IR threads. Yet, it happens daily. Bottom line, you can't force IR. If you believe it's the natural motion, which 99.99999% on this board do, then it will happen naturally as long as you are not poisoned early by wrist flippers, HE coaches, and not knowing the difference between good pitching and bad hitting.

Man10, this is what I tell parents of EVERY kid who comes to me from a HE coach that questions everything I teach (which is in total opposition): Go out and try it yourself. See what happens. See if HE feels natural. See if your arm hurts after. See what spin you get. By the way, even if a parent walks away doubting me because I'm 1% and the HE coaches of the world are 99%, I give them the Youtube challenge. Show me a world class pitcher who does HE. Not your city rec superstar who's dad put video on Youtube, but watch game clips of the world's best (MEN and women) and find me a single one that doesn't whip their elbow with the HE approach.

If that doesn't work. Do a King/Court routine... where he pitches with a hollowed out ball that makes it look like he's throwing 100mph and has movement that cannot be hit... but the other team has to pitch with a regular ball. OR, deflate the balls like the current controversy. Deflategate and learning of the hero cheating is this generation's equivalent to my generation's learning Milli Vanilli lip sync'd.

Bill

 

[RetiredCoach]

Thanks for the excellent advice, Bill! Great to hear from you!

 

[javasource]

Milli Vanilli lip-synced???!!!

Actually saw them in concert... with Young MC... while sporting my own Hammer pants. How's that for too much information?!

 

[cuzmail]

Actually saw them in concert.

That's funny

while sporting my own Hammer pants.

You are a brave man to put that out here! I used to call those crapper pants b/c you could take one and no one could tell.

How's that for too much information?!

Give us new insight into you JS !

 

[Man10]

Small udate, just for fun we done the show it throw it drill and I talked to her about what Hillhouse posted in this thread. I know we are just beginning but she started concentrating on pulling it straight down and letting the whip happen naturally and bam! The ball was moving pretty good. I'm sure we have a LONG way to go but kudos to all who have helps so far! It's great,y appreciated!

 

[JJsqueeze]

Man10, I was going to say this in a PM because all the experts have spoken. So some of what I may say will be repetitive. I've said in the past that I have never fully read the IR threads so I cannot quote from them. But if your DD has bullet spin, I believe it means she's not using her elbow enough. The more whip of the elbow, the more the kinetic chain has to follow and the wrist and fingers follow suit. Typically, bullet spin is caused by turning the wrist at the release. This means the ball doesn't move, it stays flat. The thought of doing that on purpose perplexes me. Do you know how many times I went into a dugout after giving up 3 runs, on 2 HR's, a walk, etc. etc. etc. and telling the coach/catcher: "That thing is not moving today! The drop won't go down, the change is in the dirt, and my rise is 'not dropping less' <lol>)!!" Doing that on purpose would've been damaging to my career. Instead, I would grab someone between innings (providing I wasn't hitting a dinger that inning) and go behind the dug out to figure out what's wrong. Not enough whip? Over throwing? etc. Then I'd pray to my God that the next inning would be better and my team would pick me up.

The thought of bullet spin as a fastball period makes no sense. Correction: throwing a fastball PERIOD makes no sense. But, Bullet spin requires turning the wrist, not snapping it in the following of the whip of the elbow. Essentially, think of bullet spin like this: a lack of elbow. Ask your DD if her shoulder hurts after she pitches, if the answer is yes, it's likely because she's not whipping her elbow, using mostly shoulder, and turning the wrist at the release for the bullet spin. There is no possible way for that to be faster than a genuine kinetic whip of the elbow. Apply this to baseball: why are curveballs 20 mph slower than fastballs? Because the pitcher has to twist his wrist to put the spin on it. Same as a bullet spin softball pitcher... without the movement.

I'm not sure if I read this or not so forgive me if I did but, I thought I remember someone saying IR and spin are not necessary together. But they can be. If I had a nickle for every kid who I've seen at clinics and lessons, who's mom/dad has read this board, and they have a bullet spin of sorts. Let me digress: there's 2 bullet spins. One where the ball spins clockwise, the other where it is counter clockwise. The MAJORITY of bullet spinners have clockwise spin. The minority are the ones who come to lessons wanting to learn the IR thing so badly that they force the hand over before the release creating counter clockwise bullet spin. Literally rolling their hand over top of the ball at release, not letting the ball release and letting the body do it's natural course of action. While I don't want to put words in BM's mouth, I don't think that is what he was teaching in his IR threads. Yet, it happens daily. Bottom line, you can't force IR. If you believe it's the natural motion, which 99.99999% on this board do, then it will happen naturally as long as you are not poisoned early by wrist flippers, HE coaches, and not knowing the difference between good pitching and bad hitting.

Man10, this is what I tell parents of EVERY kid who comes to me from a HE coach that questions everything I teach (which is in total opposition): Go out and try it yourself. See what happens. See if HE feels natural. See if your arm hurts after. See what spin you get. By the way, even if a parent walks away doubting me because I'm 1% and the HE coaches of the world are 99%, I give them the Youtube challenge. Show me a world class pitcher who does HE. Not your city rec superstar who's dad put video on Youtube, but watch game clips of the world's best (MEN and women) and find me a single one that doesn't whip their elbow with the HE approach.

If that doesn't work. Do a King/Court routine... where he pitches with a hollowed out ball that makes it look like he's throwing 100mph and has movement that cannot be hit... but the other team has to pitch with a regular ball. OR, deflate the balls like the current controversy. Deflategate and learning of the hero cheating is this generation's equivalent to my generation's learning Milli Vanilli lip sync'd.

Bill

Great to see you stop by again. One thing I would love to understand is what is the difference you see between what is called IR here and what I see you refer to as elbow snap. I have always thought that it was just terminology and the ideas were the same but from your post it seems that there are actual differences.

 

[Hillhouse]

Java... I saw that show too... Milli Vanilli and Young MC. It was the one and ONLY concert I've ever been to. A girl I was dating won tickets on the radio (circa 1989?) and I went. I don't enjoy crowds or loud things so, concerts aren't my thing. Ironically, if I pitch in a tournament final in front of a few thousand or few hundred people, I hear what I want. But, to be forced to hear noise.... not for me.

JJ, here's the thing and I know this is sacrilege to say. But, I only mention "IR" if someone else does to me. (which is happening more and more). What I do is teach people the way that I do it and the way I learned it. I could be 100% wrong but, if "IR" is the way the body is supposed to move, then that's what should happen to it if it's thrown naturally. I tell people to concentrate on the whip or snap (choose your word) of your elbow (same as a baseball pitcher would describe) and the results will happen almost instantly, as Man10 said started too with his DD.

I know I was used as an example clip in the IR thread long ago, and I had no idea that's what I was doing. All I was and do concentrate on when pitching is whipping my elbow through my release as hard as possible. Again, I could be wrong but, I believe that because I've never done the wrist flips, the Hello Elbow drills, etc. is the reason I had a long time in the pitching circle. Probably too long. So, maybe what needs to be said is... if my video used in the other thread is an example, to achieve IR, one must whip his/her elbow as hard as possible. Just like an overhand thrower does. But regardless of whether I was throwing a rise or drop (and/or low rise, curve) all I thought was to whip my elbow and spin the ball the way it was supposed to move.

So, I'm sorry if it seems like there's differences. If there are, I don't know what they are. All I can tell you is, the way I teach things and the way I do it myself is more about trying to whip my elbow. The IR thing happens on it's own because I wasn't poisoned with crap before. Keeping in mind, I started pitching very young and played my first MEN'S LEAGUE game at 11 or 12 because there was no youth boy's fastpitch. I imitated the best pitchers I could find when they threw. But through my teen years, I hung around some girls softball (mostly to get dates by throwing BP to them) and I could NEVER for the life of me understand why they did some of the crazy s**t they did when they pitched. Why were they doing these ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS drills? Why does that girl bend her arm upward? In fairness, I had no idea what I was doing when I pitched at that time or how to teach it but, I knew that I lived in a different world then these girls. They were being taught things that I never saw any of the world's best pitchers doing. And I remember having the brain power to muster this thought: in the city where I live there is a school that is locally DOMINANT in softball yet, none of their players ever seemed to "go anywhere" with their careers. So, being the Einstein that I am, it didn't take me long to put 2 and 2 together. This alone is why I laugh out loud at those who contend I did things differently because I am male. My reproductive organs had nothing to do with it. I was a skinny, skinny kid. Still am considered under weight. So it's not about muscle. If it was, I would've worked out on steroids to make my body as big as could be because this was my passion... to be the best pitcher I could be. The "superstar" girls pitchers in the high schools were going to D3 schools if they were lucky. That just didn't seem like a coincidence to me. And still to this day, I do very few LOCAL lessons if any.... the ones I do are typically people who fly into or drive to Erie PA where I live during the summer... then we hope for good weather so we can work at an outdoor park. And over the years, we've had some girls go onto D1 schools (nearby) such as Niagara, Youngstown St., etc. but none of the power houses.

Although, if you want a little story... I'll give you one.... Yes, you can take this as self promotion if you want. Or, as a coincidence if you want. I take it as an interesting fact. I never post or advertise where my students go to college, but I'm making an exception here and not for what you may think. About 6 years ago I met a man who started to bring his pitchers to me as a 12U team. As time went on, this guy sort of bought all of my time on a particular day and I was doing 1/2 pitching lessons and 1/2 hitting by throwing BP. It was his philosophy that came up with, "If my girls bat off Bill, 12 yr olds will seem like pudding". Now, he was/is a hitting coach so he did a lot of this on his own too. I threw BP. Making it rise, making it drop, changing up. And 2 years later, the team broke up. Honestly the coach was more demanding than the parents and players were willing to give (Practice on Thanksgiving, for example). The results were paying off, as a 12u team they won the 14u ASA HoF tournament one year. They'd have won National's too if they had a 2nd pitcher. They didn't and finished 4th I think. Anyway, after the team broke up, a couple girls kept hitting off me periodically but not consistent... except his daughter. Week in and week out, she hit off me for 1/2 hour. By the time she was a senior in HS, her team had won back to back state titles and she had a scholarship to Oregon. Here is a kid from OHIO being given a scholarship to Oregon... Ohio state and many others never even made offers for some reason. Whatever. Anyway... the ones that were 1/2 committed when onto schools in Division 1... but no power houses. And the girl who was regular hitter from 12-18? She just won Freshman of the year for the Pac 12. Now, I never lit it up as hard as I could but I was throwing it harder than ANYONE she'd see in college and anyone she'd see in HS for sure... with movement and change ups. Wanna know what? By the end of our time together, I could NOT fool her. She fouled everything off. Yes, she'd swing and miss on occasion but not like most. She stepped into the Pac 12 prepared better than anyone. I didn't teach her to hit, her dad did that and she did that with her dedication. But I taught her how to read pitchers, read spin, set up pitchers for HER pitch, and by golly.... it turned out. What I cannot figure out and why more girls do not find someone to do this with. They hit off tees, they soft toss... but they don't prepare for the actual game. OR prepare for the game within the game. I didn't make her great, not by a long shot. She'd have played D1 without me... but at Oregon? I don't know. What's the point? I don't know...... I am just proud of her. LOL. Ironically, the pitcher on that 12U team I started with 6 years ago could've gone onto greatness too. But she gave it up for a reason I don't know. Pressure? Pain? I don't know. I know they were winning 16U local tournaments as a 12U team with this girl pitching. I guess sometimes pitching students are like going fishing, when you end up with nothing you wonder if you used the right bait, the right lure, at the right spot, etc.

That story had no purpose other than to further the ridiculousness that men's fastpitch and women's fastpitch are total opposites.

Bill

 

[JJsqueeze]

What a great story. My girls have become big fans of Jenna, her batting warm up routine is mesmerizing in how energetic it is and she can hit the ball really well. I hope she took you deep a few times.


I think the term IR gets in the way a lot. And people come by here and think it is a style or something that is taught by certain people when in reality it is just a description from one teacher to describe what the best in the world do. Then they go out in the world looking for a PC that teaches it and can't find anyone who knows what the hell they are talking about. From what I have seen in your videos there is little daylight between you and what BM (or Rick Pauly, or Rich Balswick) has advocated content wise, terminology is different but the goal and results are the same, namely that the pitchers come out looking a whole lot more like the best than if they did wrist flips and pointed their elbow at the catchers.

Really great to hear your stories so thanks again.

 

[Doug Romrell]

It's always GREAT to read posts from you, Bill! Hope to see more (than we have in the recent past).

 

[javasource]

Java... I saw that show too... Milli Vanilli and Young MC. It was the one and ONLY concert I've ever been to. A girl I was dating won tickets on the radio (circa 1989?) and I went.

Was this up north? Sounds like the same show... how funny.

I don't enjoy crowds or loud things so, concerts aren't my thing. Ironically, if I pitch in a tournament final in front of a few thousand or few hundred people, I hear what I want.

Bill, I just admitted some horrible stylistic decisions in my youth... it's ok to tell us all that you heard Milli Vanilli songs all those years while you were taking the plate. Blame it on the Rain. Girl, You Know it's True.... come on, Bill... which one was it?

But, to be forced to hear noise.... not for me.

Actually Bill... that noise you heard was Rob and Fab trying to sing... it was horrible. At least I was able to Bust a Move, that night... (no duality, that's a Young MC reference). And you all know what I mean...

Bust It!