IR versus "Hello Elbow"

[BoardMember]

BoardMember,

The video of you swinging the bat, then showing the same movement throwing a softball is profound. What a great drill!

Thanks,
Adam

Thank you Adam........Drill should NOT be complicated.......They should simply replicate in isolation a part or all of the motions involved in the goal........And drills should be progressive in nature........They should ALWAYS lead to an addition problem.........This.......PLUS THIS.....EQUALS THAT..........

That's why I like Carly's "end game" drills.........Because they are progressive.........

 

[NVfishing]

They do look very similar, but IMO, Phil is doing what he says he does, he is focusing on extending/snapping his elbow straight, and snapping his wrist, and any internal rotation is simply a byproduct of turning his palm in the direction of the target.

OTOH, BoardMember is focusing on internally rotating his upper arm and pronating his forearm, and the elbow extension/snap is a byproduct, not a forced snap.

That's my opinion, now I'd like to hear what each of them have to say.

When I looked at the video in full speed I didn't see a difference but when it's slowed it changes everything. BM hand and forearm turn over at the bottom of the circle by the release point and Phil's hand doesn't turn over until it's fully extended after the pitch is already gone.

 

[sluggers]

Thanks BM for you patience and sharing on this topic. You've really opened my eyes.

 

[lhowser]

Call it I/R, Forearm Fire™ or Armpalooza. I don't care.

IR is not a brand or a system. It is Boardmember explaining what the arm does. It MUST internally rotate.

It is similar to shooting a basketball and someone explaining you need to have Palmer Flexion. That is what you do when you flick your wrist shooting a ball. In basketball you can call it "flick the wrist" or LeBron may call it "gooseneck" but the movement that occurs is Palmer Flexion.

Same with Internal Rotation.

 

[Adman]

IR is not a brand or a system. It is Boardmember explaining what the arm does. It MUST internally rotate.

Yes, I know. It's a physical/medical term to describe the body's mechanics. I appreciate descriptive terminology. You may have gotten the wrong idea about my post.

 

[RayR]

Thanks BM - the bat drill is really good and would like to add this one thought (and this thought applies to the first drill BM showed from the 9:00 position):

Create IR pressure in the humerus while holding the bat or a ball at 9:00...you should feel something like torquing the humerus without actually letting it turn from the forearm restraining it...it is not an intense pressure but enough to feel it....then let it go....ball will just pop out of your hand...


Once your forearm releases the restraining torque on the humerus - the humerus turns over (IR's) and the forearm pronates (whips) by the elbow....and you end up with a natural release and follow through with the hand turning over...

I am guessing that just by the follow through of the guy in the middle that he is bypassing the humerus and trying to whip with sheer forearm force...

I wanted to add that part of the learning curve in a full windup is learning when to apply the humeral IR....like anything else you will get off some reps that will feel like you were on auto pilot and some where you forced it...reps, reps, reps...

 

[Stonecrabs02]

My 10 yr old I believe was naturally pitching with IR. Can someone tell me if her finish is the finish of IR.

She has since been taught "hello elbow"

Now what do I do

 

[BoardMember]

Stone, it appears she may have been a "natural". And if the correct I/R motion looks vaguely familiar to you, then you are probably right about her natural ability. And she is why I write about the pitching motion.

You are not alone Stone. You didn't/don't know the difference, and therefore were helpless to recognize what was being done to her mechanics by a well meaning but inferior instructor. The fact is, you are just one of the thousands in this position.

You need to find your DD another pitching coach who can EXPLOIT her natural ability with training and guidance, instead of coaching the athlete out of her...........

 

[Stonecrabs02]

BM thanks for the info. I am not trying to say she is a "natural" but was wondering if it was possible that she was naturally pitching with IR. A few weeks back I started the post IR vs chicken wing. In the second picture of my daughter her arm is about shoulder high,sometimes her arm would go a little higher and her elbow wouldflare out away from her body and she was told she was chicken winging . After learning a little about IR I am wondering if this was just an after effect of IR.

 

[BoardMember]

BM thanks for the info. I am not trying to say she is a "natural" but was wondering if it was possible that she was naturally pitching with IR.

Yes I know. And that's what I meant when I said she may be a "natural"..........

A few weeks back I started the post IR vs chicken wing. In the second picture of my daughter her arm is about shoulder high,sometimes her arm would go a little higher and her elbow wouldflare out away from her body and she was told she was chicken winging . After learning a little about IR I am wondering if this was just an after effect of IR.

Click this link and take a look at these world class pitchers and their "chicken wing" finishes.........

The problem is the very PC's who don't understand I/R and teach the hello elbow style of delivery, then ALSO CANNOT understand the "effects" of an I/R delivery, and therefore use the "chicken wing" to "sell" their methods to their students/parents........

So here's the ironic thing about the "vicious cycle".

MOST "chicken wings" that are actually a flaw, IE the winging happens before release, are being caused by the hand turning in front of the elbow too early in the downswing, and I/R throwing the elbow outside the hand at/before release.

So the FLAW called "chicken winging" is really CAUSED by pitching instructors who try to get the kids to get the hand behind (on top) of the ball early, and natural I/R then CAUSES the wing to fly out early. So the instructors then point that out as a flaw, and try even harder to get rid of the natural I/R motion to prevent a problem that they caused in the first place with their "push style" mechanics..........

See the vicious cycle this causes?.........."Get your hand behind the ball early!........And stop the chicken winging!"........

What a fiasco...........