IR breakdown
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- Jul 14, 2008
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There is SO MUCH TO KNOW when teaching pitching..........I hope you can extrapolate what you need from this post........I'm a little tired this evening..........
Something I've often referred to as a fatal flaw in the pitching motion..........Is when the "hook" (bend) in the arm faces the opposing shoulder vs. forward as the arm approaches up and over the top of the circle.........
When this occurs..........It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to complete a circle without correction mid-swing.........The upper arm (humerus) then has NO CHOICE but to externally very late in the circle (over the top) to relieve the stress in the shoulder joint.........And as the upper arm externally rotates at the top to relieve the pressure, a pause actually occurs in the circle at the top to allow for the bio-mechanical correction.........
Lets take a look at Jill's fatal flaw which actually starts in the upswing.........She properly faces the ball inward on the way up the circle..........However.........As she passes 3:00 in front of her, and approaches the top, she never externally rotates her shoulder to move the arm/ball from facing inward to facing the down then forward toward the catcher BEFORE her upper arm passes her head...........As a result........You can actually see a pause in the circle during the correction over the top, which is costing her dearly........And could even result in injury later on.........
So where do we START looking for CAUSES of the of the fatal flaw...........START WITH THE LEGS........And the timing of the drive leg.............
Let's take a look at someone else who starts JUST LIKE JILL, ball inward, but is able to turn the ball down/forward (E/R's her upper arm/shoulder) BEFORE the critical moment of no return so she can continue the circle un-interupted by any corrective movement..........
Notice how much earlier KN opens her pelvis compared to Jill........Because by 3:00 in front of her with her arms, her lead leg is fully extended, pelvis fully open, and her throwing shoulder is way behind her glove shoulder by 12:00. This is a result of her pelvis opening way earlier in the motion from proper leg drive timing.......And her shoulders are seeking alignment with the open pelvis much earlier........BEFORE the top.............Resulting in early external rotation of the upper arm/shoulder BEFORE the arm gets to 12:00..........
When the pelvis and shoulders are opening as late as Jill's, and the arm is externally rotating this late, it will continue to do so until the hand is on top of the ball..........It has to to relieve the stress..........
Jill's pelvis is OPENING because it HAS TO, to assist the shoulder in stress relief. KN's pelvis is opening because it WANTS TO to get everything ready and aligned for the move over the top........This is CRITICAL to get right.......
Notice KN's elbow is already behind the ball as Jill's is correcting? Notice Jill's pelvis and shoulders opening while KN's are already there...........
So start with fixing the timing of the leg drive........Arms and lead leg go out TOGETHER.........Extended at 3:00 in front..........Get the pelvis open.........Get the shoulders open.........Get that arm in position hooked forward BEFORE it reaches her head...........
Something I've often referred to as a fatal flaw in the pitching motion..........Is when the "hook" (bend) in the arm faces the opposing shoulder vs. forward as the arm approaches up and over the top of the circle.........
When this occurs..........It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to complete a circle without correction mid-swing.........The upper arm (humerus) then has NO CHOICE but to externally very late in the circle (over the top) to relieve the stress in the shoulder joint.........And as the upper arm externally rotates at the top to relieve the pressure, a pause actually occurs in the circle at the top to allow for the bio-mechanical correction.........
Lets take a look at Jill's fatal flaw which actually starts in the upswing.........She properly faces the ball inward on the way up the circle..........However.........As she passes 3:00 in front of her, and approaches the top, she never externally rotates her shoulder to move the arm/ball from facing inward to facing the down then forward toward the catcher BEFORE her upper arm passes her head...........As a result........You can actually see a pause in the circle during the correction over the top, which is costing her dearly........And could even result in injury later on.........
So where do we START looking for CAUSES of the of the fatal flaw...........START WITH THE LEGS........And the timing of the drive leg.............
Let's take a look at someone else who starts JUST LIKE JILL, ball inward, but is able to turn the ball down/forward (E/R's her upper arm/shoulder) BEFORE the critical moment of no return so she can continue the circle un-interupted by any corrective movement..........
Notice how much earlier KN opens her pelvis compared to Jill........Because by 3:00 in front of her with her arms, her lead leg is fully extended, pelvis fully open, and her throwing shoulder is way behind her glove shoulder by 12:00. This is a result of her pelvis opening way earlier in the motion from proper leg drive timing.......And her shoulders are seeking alignment with the open pelvis much earlier........BEFORE the top.............Resulting in early external rotation of the upper arm/shoulder BEFORE the arm gets to 12:00..........
When the pelvis and shoulders are opening as late as Jill's, and the arm is externally rotating this late, it will continue to do so until the hand is on top of the ball..........It has to to relieve the stress..........
Jill's pelvis is OPENING because it HAS TO, to assist the shoulder in stress relief. KN's pelvis is opening because it WANTS TO to get everything ready and aligned for the move over the top........This is CRITICAL to get right.......
Notice KN's elbow is already behind the ball as Jill's is correcting? Notice Jill's pelvis and shoulders opening while KN's are already there...........
So start with fixing the timing of the leg drive........Arms and lead leg go out TOGETHER.........Extended at 3:00 in front..........Get the pelvis open.........Get the shoulders open.........Get that arm in position hooked forward BEFORE it reaches her head...........
Hitting thanks isn't adequate for me this time- I really appreciate your taking the time to provide this analysis of Jill's motion (and thanks Jill's dad for sharing with us). I learned so much from this post that I think will be helpful for my DD.
I agree - saying thanks is not enough. BM I completely understand what you are saying about her arm and shoulder - her motion always looked funny at the top and thanks to your post I understand why. I see the difference between Jill and KN in the timing of their leg drive...but as far as fixing it I am wondering if you could recommend a specific drill or perhaps advise as to what she should focus on to correct this?
There is SO MUCH TO KNOW when teaching pitching..........I hope you can extrapolate what you need from this post........I'm a little tired this evening..........
Something I've often referred to as a fatal flaw in the pitching motion..........Is when the "hook" (bend) in the arm faces the opposing shoulder vs. forward as the arm approaches up and over the top of the circle.........
When this occurs..........It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to complete a circle without correction mid-swing.........The upper arm (humerus) then has NO CHOICE but to externally very late in the circle (over the top) to relieve the stress in the shoulder joint.........And as the upper arm externally rotates at the top to relieve the pressure, a pause actually occurs in the circle at the top to allow for the bio-mechanical correction.........
Lets take a look at Jill's fatal flaw which actually starts in the upswing.........She properly faces the ball inward on the way up the circle..........However.........As she passes 3:00 in front of her, and approaches the top, she never externally rotates her shoulder to move the arm/ball from facing inward to facing the down then forward toward the catcher BEFORE her upper arm passes her head...........As a result........You can actually see a pause in the circle during the correction over the top, which is costing her dearly........And could even result in injury later on.........
So where do we START looking for CAUSES of the of the fatal flaw...........START WITH THE LEGS........And the timing of the drive leg.............
Let's take a look at someone else who starts JUST LIKE JILL, ball inward, but is able to turn the ball down/forward (E/R's her upper arm/shoulder) BEFORE the critical moment of no return so she can continue the circle un-interupted by any corrective movement..........
Notice how much earlier KN opens her pelvis compared to Jill........Because by 3:00 in front of her with her arms, her lead leg is fully extended, pelvis fully open, and her throwing shoulder is way behind her glove shoulder by 12:00. This is a result of her pelvis opening way earlier in the motion from proper leg drive timing.......And her shoulders are seeking alignment with the open pelvis much earlier........BEFORE the top.............Resulting in early external rotation of the upper arm/shoulder BEFORE the arm gets to 12:00..........
When the pelvis and shoulders are opening as late as Jill's, and the arm is externally rotating this late, it will continue to do so until the hand is on top of the ball..........It has to to relieve the stress..........
Jill's pelvis is OPENING because it HAS TO, to assist the shoulder in stress relief. KN's pelvis is opening because it WANTS TO to get everything ready and aligned for the move over the top........This is CRITICAL to get right.......
Notice KN's elbow is already behind the ball as Jill's is correcting? Notice Jill's pelvis and shoulders opening while KN's are already there...........
So start with fixing the timing of the leg drive........Arms and lead leg go out TOGETHER.........Extended at 3:00 in front..........Get the pelvis open.........Get the shoulders open.........Get that arm in position hooked forward BEFORE it reaches her head...........
board member, how do you fix the timing of the leg drive? any ideas on what would be a good drill for something like this?
- Oct 22, 2009
- 1,779
- 0
Great job boardmember!
Very awesome detailed explanation BoardMember, but I'm confused about how closed KN's hips are at release. It seems this is how it should be to and the most natural, but pitching open is stressed so much. Plus, her other arm is swimming pretty bad. I guess not everybody does it perfectly, but I'm getting so confused on how to teach my dd.
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- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,798
- 63
I leave the "open/closed" debate to the guys who need something to hang their hats on.........
Hal Skinner is the only person I've ever heard over-use the "open/closed" debate to "label" his "brand" or style.......Heck, he calls "closed" 45 degrees "open" from the target line.........How screwed up is that? LOL!
The ONLY THING I care about is that there is a clear path to the target line..........IMO, somewhere around 45 degrees is optimum......But it's NOT an absolute by any stretch of the imagination.........Some are more open........Some are more closed........
It's simply a matter of anatomy. Some are more flexible then others. Some have wider shoulders then hips. Some are just the opposite.
Example...........
For me.........Zero degrees (dead square) isn't an option...........So call me an "open" style coach.......Because 20 degrees open from square is 20 degrees OPEN not 70 degrees closed...........
I think the ONLY debate is whether you should be dead square or not.........The answer is of course........NOT........
The fact that someone needs to label that to separate themselves seems to me to be totally rediculous and really petty.........
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halskinner
Banned
- May 7, 2008
- 2,649
- 0
Open = hips at 90 degrees at landing foot touchdown.
Closed = hips at 45 degrees at landing foot touchdown
Close / slam the door = hips at zero degrees at landing foot touchdown or even at ball release.
That is how they have always been referred to in my neck of the woods. I have said that many times on this board. Heard those mechanics called that for 50+ years.
Just so you realize, your 'Ball path to the target ' is a straight line with 'Closed' mechanics as well, nothing is in the way of anything..
We will always be at opposite ends of an opinion. Step style and leap and drag, always been different and always will be.
Good luck to your students.
Closed = hips at 45 degrees at landing foot touchdown
Close / slam the door = hips at zero degrees at landing foot touchdown or even at ball release.
That is how they have always been referred to in my neck of the woods. I have said that many times on this board. Heard those mechanics called that for 50+ years.
Just so you realize, your 'Ball path to the target ' is a straight line with 'Closed' mechanics as well, nothing is in the way of anything..
We will always be at opposite ends of an opinion. Step style and leap and drag, always been different and always will be.
Good luck to your students.
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,798
- 63
I see you added "swimming" to your post this morning.........I see her head band is a little "scrunched" on her forehead also.......
Let me give you bit of advise..........Build the engine........Start it up.........See how it runs........If it needs tweeking, tweek it.......Otherwise........LET IT RUN...........
DON'T tweek it until you KNOW FOR A FACT that something is affecting it's performance.............
This is Jelly Seldon.........Taught by Rich Balswick.........4 year full ride to UCLA.......World class pitcher.........Fernandez was her collegiate pitching coach.......Sue Enquist was her head coach...........
Guess they ALL missed that little "swimming" detail eh????
Git my drift?
Let me give you bit of advise..........Build the engine........Start it up.........See how it runs........If it needs tweeking, tweek it.......Otherwise........LET IT RUN...........
DON'T tweek it until you KNOW FOR A FACT that something is affecting it's performance.............
This is Jelly Seldon.........Taught by Rich Balswick.........4 year full ride to UCLA.......World class pitcher.........Fernandez was her collegiate pitching coach.......Sue Enquist was her head coach...........
Guess they ALL missed that little "swimming" detail eh????
Git my drift?
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