Individual progress vs serving the greater good

[SoftSocDad]

(apologies in advance for the length of this post)

lhowser makes a good point. seeing better players can inspire girls to get better. thats how my dd started pitching. she saw one of the older girls who played travel just dominating in little league and said to me... that's what i want to do... a couple of years later and hundreds of hours of practice, now she is that girl that parents tell me inspires their daughters to want to be better. being in and seeing a higher level of play raises the girls that want to play's level.

see my post on raising a nation of wimps. not everyone needs to get a trophy. Banning travel ball pitchers from rec all stars is simply some rec all stars dad trying to ensure DD gets a trophy. if they want the trophy... work harder than the next person.

Some very compelling arguments...I'll concede that there is indeed some intrinsic value in having travel players also playing in rec leagues.

I guess my concern *is* for those younger girls who are just learning the game. It's not at all unusual for a girl's first rec experience to be at age 9-11. In our 8u division, there are a few 10yo girls playing the game for the first time.

I love the fact that my kid is very talented, but I *really* love the fact that she wants to work hard to get better. It was fun watching her blow the girls away once she learned how to pitch this past season. But given that the level of play at 8u isn't going to improve dramatically - remember, older girls who age out will be replaced by t-ballers coming in - I just don't see what anyone gains by trotting her back out for 8u next year, which is what our league proposes. I guess success builds confidence, but do you really get that benefit from playing clearly inferior competition? Yeah, I suppose family gatherings are more fun when coach Dad gets to brag to the grandparents about how awesome their little star is.

And lest you think I'm holier than though, I'll be the first to admit that I dote on my DD as much as anyone.

I'm all about survival of the fittest and I want girls to be inspired by others to do better, but do you feel there is a point at which complete domination keeps the rec game from being fun for anyone?

After talking to her about it, my daughter has agreed to play 8u this fall, but does not want to play 8u per league rules again in the spring. That's not a call I'm willing to make. If she isn't allowed to play 10u - which would allow her to challenge for a spot on the all-star team - I could see her potentially sitting out the season.

I know that sounds crazy, but although she played the 'martyr' (love that term! lol) role again this season, I don't foresee her voluntarily doing it again. She was so unbelievably supportive of her teammates this season, but I know she doesn't want to endure another year of that.

So, if she comes back next season - 1/3 of the girls are inspired to get better, 1/3 of the girls decide they'll never be that good and quit, and 1/3 aren't phased either way.

Should she sacrifice her progress because none of her teammates is ever interested in getting together to play catch or anything? And what about the teammates who'll get very little work in the field when she's pitching? And what about the grumbling from opposing team parents who won't consider it 'fair'...a message they convey to their kids? And what about teammate criticism of pitcher #2 who won't be nearly as good?

One of the unfortunate realities about our league is that the best 10-14yo girls DO leave the league to go play travel ball. There's a huge talent void in the upper age groups. I'm not saying the girls cannot play, but other than hitting the ball harder, you don't see a really big improvement curve from 8u to 16u and they don't even keep enough girls to field a 16u team each year. There's generally a 16u team every other season.

So, to conclude, I'm going to accept that - even though I would still see major safety concerns - there would be value in allowing travel players to help support local rec programs with their play. As SoCalDad has noted, it's allowed in the rulebooks, so given that there's no prohibition, let's go for it and see whether it helps to bring up the level of play in leagues where this is taking place.

 

[SnocatzDad]

I would go farther than just stating that kids look at a better player as inspiration. Almost every player that I've ever seen really succeed at a high level has drive that you can trace back to wanting to not only become that better player, but beat that better player. Maybe it's another player in their town, maybe it's the stud pitcher on someone else's team, maybe it's an older sister. The ones that stand out aren't the ones that look at the better player and say "I want to be like them someday." they are thinking " I want to be better than her and will do whatever it takes to get there. " IMO Complacency destroys more players than anything else and in the situation you described above I can't imagine something making a player more complacent than playing games against much weaker opponents. What is the incentive to put in the work to get better when you already run rule the teams you play?

 

[fastpitch]

SoftSocDad - Sounds like your DD should play up if she can compete with older girls. Staying another year at 8U rec I presume would probably hinder her development if she is so far ahead in pitching, hitting and defense than everyone else. Each individual situation is different. Some girls can pitch; but thats it. Those girls may be better served staying down and working on other things as well. Some girls should move up.

Game experience is definitely important; but most individual skills are developed in practice and not games. Unless you are pitcher/catcher in some games you get maybe 4 or 5 plays if you are lucky. That being said it sounds like you need to look for another venue for your DD to improve. She needs to be around other more motivated girls as well or else she may slip down to the mean. I would look for a young 10u travel/ club team to tryout with if I were you. If she does make one watch out. Your life will change.

My 10yo DD plays for 3 different teams (LL; Town Travel and Club) and has games all the time... looking back I think that might have been a mistake. Because of all the games she has she doesn't get as many reps and specific practice in as she could if she was only on 1 or 2 teams. But she does get certain experiences from each of the teams. LL and Town Travel she can pitch without getting clobbered by club teams. On those teams she can also practice in games the skills she doesn't have down that well under less pressure than her club team like hitting lefty and slap hitting; slash hitting; etc. I also opted for her to play 12u club this year where she wouldn't pitch but has better coaching and plays other positions which improves her overall knowledge of the game. She sees better pitching which improves her hitting. She could have played 10u club and been a superstar pitcher but I didn't think that would be as beneficial as getting experience and learning the overall game with older better players.

 

[absdad]

I personally don't think there is any value for allowing travel players in rec, or keeping players in rec, who should be in travel. If you're good, you move up and play with others of like skillsets. There isn't any value in letting a ringer play in rec, and dominating the competition. Who does that benefit??

 

[Cannonball]

So, we went through this. DD was a little better than most but worked harder. Then, she wanted to be with her friends. She didn't run around bragging, showing off, ... She laughed a lot and loved playing. Sure she pitched but there were limits set by the league and so, everyone pitched. There was a lot to be said about the "fun" aspect of just being around friends you went to school with. Unfortunately, we wanted the same experience when she turned 9 but she also was going to play for a travel team. That's when all of the conflict started. She didn't/couldn't understand why things had changed. Sure she made other friends but she didn't go to school with them, spend birthdays ... Then, she was essentially thrown out of the league with her team all of whom were drafted like any other team. So, that became our travel team. Wasn't "fair" since I pay my taxes and thought my child was entitled to be treated the same as ever other child in the area who lives in our Park Taxing District. Think of it, any coach with an agenda can ask the board to declare a child "too good" and then, that child is removed and forced to find a travel team. Seems an easy way for a group of Rec coaches to protect their team's success. Ironically, those coaches are the same people who now are upset that their children get cut in tryouts. JMHO!

 

[SoftSocDad]

I would go farther than just stating that kids look at a better player as inspiration. Almost every player that I've ever seen really succeed at a high level has drive that you can trace back to wanting to not only become that better player, but beat that better player. Maybe it's another player in their town, maybe it's the stud pitcher on someone else's team, maybe it's an older sister. The ones that stand out aren't the ones that look at the better player and say "I want to be like them someday." they are thinking " I want to be better than her and will do whatever it takes to get there. " IMO Complacency destroys more players than anything else and in the situation you described above I can't imagine something making a player more complacent than playing games against much weaker opponents. What is the incentive to put in the work to get better when you already run rule the teams you play?

I didn't fight for her to be allowed to move up to 8u early and she still hasn't really forgiven me for that. I took the blame for holding her back and at the time, I thought it would be good for the other girls, and I felt she would benefit from being able to help her teammates. She hated the experience.

Coming into this season, we gave no thought to moving her to 10u and as it turns out, the league would not have allowed it anyway. Since she decided she wanted to pitch, she needed to go the beginner's route.

Now that she's seen so much real softball being played, however, she wants to get to that level as quickly as possible. I'm a pretty competitive individual and I'm achievement-minded, but my wife is the exact opposite. The kid, however, just has that fire when it comes to sports, but is more laid back in school, where she gets excellent marks with a minimum of effort.

If the fall season goes the way she finished her spring season and they still won't let her move up, then we'll have to look elsewhere for a place to play, because I agree with the points you have raised.

 

[SoftSocDad]

SoftSocDad - Sounds like your DD should play up if she can compete with older girls. Staying another year at 8U rec I presume would probably hinder her development if she is so far ahead in pitching, hitting and defense than everyone else. Each individual situation is different. Some girls can pitch; but thats it. Those girls may be better served staying down and working on other things as well. Some girls should move up.

Game experience is definitely important; but most individual skills are developed in practice and not games. Unless you are pitcher/catcher in some games you get maybe 4 or 5 plays if you are lucky. That being said it sounds like you need to look for another venue for your DD to improve. She needs to be around other more motivated girls as well or else she may slip down to the mean. I would look for a young 10u travel/ club team to tryout with if I were you. If she does make one watch out. Your life will change.

My 10yo DD plays for 3 different teams (LL; Town Travel and Club) and has games all the time... looking back I think that might have been a mistake. Because of all the games she has she doesn't get as many reps and specific practice in as she could if she was only on 1 or 2 teams. But she does get certain experiences from each of the teams. LL and Town Travel she can pitch without getting clobbered by club teams. On those teams she can also practice in games the skills she doesn't have down that well under less pressure than her club team like hitting lefty and slap hitting; slash hitting; etc. I also opted for her to play 12u club this year where she wouldn't pitch but has better coaching and plays other positions which improves her overall knowledge of the game. She sees better pitching which improves her hitting. She could have played 10u club and been a superstar pitcher but I didn't think that would be as beneficial as getting experience and learning the overall game with older better players.

Cool, and thanks for sharing this.

My DD wants to move up, even if that would mean starting the season as the #2 or #3 pitcher on an older team. She's perfectly content to continue taking lessons and working on it at home. She would love to face better pitchers as a batter and would like to have more challenging plays at other positions on the field, along with teammates who could make plays as well.

She has asked to try out for a 10u travel team this winter, so she's diligently preparing for that while at the same time working from 30 feet with the 10-inch ball for the fall season.

 

[SoftSocDad]

I personally don't think there is any value for allowing travel players in rec, or keeping players in rec, who should be in travel. If you're good, you move up and play with others of like skillsets. There isn't any value in letting a ringer play in rec, and dominating the competition. Who does that benefit??

What if a 10u travel player is part of a 12u rec team? Would that be ok in your estimation?

 

[absdad]

What if a 10u travel player is part of a 12u rec team? Would that be ok in your estimation?

Maybe it's different in other parts of the country? Or maybe my rosy colored glasses are a different shade, than your rosy colored glasses... who knows.

Here in western Missouri, In all of the rec leagues that I'm aware of, no competition (travel ball) players are allowed. But, these rec teams are allowed to play in a few selected C level tournaments. My understanding is that this is intended to encourage girls to build skills, and improve, and in turn move on up the ladder. And is also intended to keep a team from recruiting full time, or guest TB players for trophy grabs in the rec ranks.

To me, rec ball is just fun ball. 1/3 might be there to build skills and move up to a higher (travel ball) level of competition, and the rest are just having fun, nothing more. Rec = "recreation", not "competition".

 

[SoftSocDad]

Maybe it's different in other parts of the country? Or maybe my rosy colored glasses are a different shade, than your rosy colored glasses... who knows.

Here in western Missouri, In all of the rec leagues that I'm aware of, no competition (travel ball) players are allowed. But, these rec teams are allowed to play in a few selected C level tournaments. My understanding is that this is intended to encourage girls to build skills, and improve, and in turn move on up the ladder. And is also intended to keep a team from recruiting full time, or guest TB players for trophy grabs in the rec ranks.

To me, rec ball is just fun ball. 1/3 might be there to build skills and move up to a higher (travel ball) level of competition, and the rest are just having fun, nothing more. Rec = "recreation", not "competition".

It's like that for soccer here (northern CA), primarily because the select teams don't want 'their' players being tainted or distracted by the rec soccer experience. Because of money and mainly because of time, my DD is foregoing select and sticking with rec for at least one more year.

Softball, however, allows for girls to play both. From rec to travel, the level of competition is significantly higher - there are players and there are non-players, with nothing in-between. Some say, however, that the summer all-star mini-season for rec is the equivalent of that mid level of play.

My daughter would love the opportunity to compete for a spot on the all-star team, so we hope she will be allowed to play 10u next spring.

As for Dad, well, I want her to have fun, but I'm equally concerned about her being challenged, because she's that type of girl. To her, greater challenge means greater enjoyment of any success that may follow.