I need some fresh eyes to look at my DD's swing

[FPMark]

One thing that strikes me in the video is how much the head moves forward (i.e., toward the pitcher) after toe touch/heel plant v. high level hitters who's heads are still after after heel plant. Use of the terminology "Coil-uncoil-thrust" w/ this hitter may be counterproductive given this tendency and going forward you might get better results using new cues and terminology to avoid confusion w/ what she's doing and thinking w/ the current swing.

I'm no expert, but thought i'd share what I see. It appears to me that she is not stopping forward motion using the front leg. she is almost 'pole vaulting' over it. The front leg needs to stop the front hip at heel plant by ER and alow the rear hip to pivot around it into 'thrust' and therefore create a more rearward slant with the head over the rear knee.

I have been experimenting with the 'move' and coil/ uncoil and kind of agree with wellphyt that thrust is a nonissue when the coil/ uncoil is done properly. I do believe it is important, but it happens naturally when coil/uncoil is done correctly. And that does involve stopping the front hip with the front leg and keeping the head from continuing forward. Kind of like pitchers using their front leg to stop forward momentum and allow the arm to whip forward.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

FPMark ... 'uncoil' and 'thrust' are mechanically different actions. Either action can be natural, or unnatural. The physical act of 'uncoiling' does not necessarily guarantee 'thrust' ... although it is often the case that 'thrust' follows 'uncoil' in decent hitters. When you run into a hitter that doesn't naturally 'thrust', you'll want to have something in your tool-set to help it become natural ... or at least that's the case for me.

 

[FPMark]

FFS... what I was trying to say was that if your front leg stops the front hip, and the rear hip continues to uncoil, then it will automaticlly force the rear hip to try to pass the front. The forward momentum of the rear hip will catch the front and try to pull both hips forward causing the 'thrust action'. When I try to think about thrusting, it tends to disrupt proper uncoiling by giving a more linear and unatural cue that can't be performed after uncoil. It's not a seperate action to me. Or maybe you could look at it like the thrust is used to start the uncoil prossess by the push from the big toe/ ball of foot. Try it and see. To thrust you must push against something, what do you push off of if thrust starts after you uncoil?

To me, thrust is part of weight shift and uncoiling at the same time. It can be seen at the end of the uncoil process, but it starts at the beginning.

Over the past several months, I have read every post you have written. I feal that you are very knowledgable about hitting and value your opinions and hate to disagree with you. But I just don't see how to seperate thrust and uncoil. By the way, some of your earlier posts in this thread were some of the best yet.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

FPMark ... don't worry about disagreeing with anyone. Anyone taking disagreement personally is not a truth seeker.

I don't use 'thrust' to start the 'uncoil' of the my 'rear leg', which is what is associated with reversing the direction of the rear hip. I simply increase the pressure of pressing against the ground with my rear foot, and this uncoils my 'rear leg', resulting in reversing the direction of my rear hip. Thrusting from my rear hip area follows this, and occurs just after my rear hip has begun to reverse its direction.

 

[LongBall]

IMHO it looks like she is using to muck arm movement back on the negative move. But I think this is caused because she is trying to load her hands (look at lead elbow movement) and the stretch her front shoulder is showing. See how she does not turn in with her hips or front knee...which is ok but she will need to make a smaller move with her hands and shoulders. At heel plant she should lead with her hips more and use the separation (torque) created when she performs the negative move (lead with the hips). For me the tee is in the wrong spot as well...that is if she is hitting down the middle and you can tell by her upper body angles almost vertical at contact and should be tilted slightly back. Also, if she shifted a good amount of weight into the front side her back leg should just tuck under her body but she seems to continue to use it and is another reason why the tilt back is important. At contact she is short arming her extension starts to show the power "V" but rolls over. This is somewhat caused do to improper shoulder angles at contact. Have her hold the bat across her chest and parallel to the ground. Then turn into contact position with shoulders square to the pitcher. Then have her crunch over at the side until the tip of the bat is pointing at the ball an this is the proper shoulder angle and she must hold it longer (some say keep your head in). The lower the pitch the more angles that is needed. Most some say dipping the rear shoulder is bad and this is true if it happens at the wrong time. But is necessary and is the reason most strikes are low and in or low and away because lots do not do this properly. As for extension I would have her do the split grip off a tee. Hands are separated about three - four inches and make sure the bottom hand starts and the top hand finishes the swing. Other that the bat wrap she would be short to the ball. Now she needs to be long through it. Oh and at heel plant and as her weight shifts tell her to feel like she is driving the back knee at the pitcher as she rolls up onto her toe and the back leg should be a "L" shape just like her rear arm at contact. Clear as MUD!

 

[bobbyb]

This is a really good thread! Thanks too lhowser for posting your dd and to everyone else for the response post. Really good info! TY

 

[BoardMember]

This hitter is a typical example of poor and mis-understood lower body mechanics that have been thrown around the hitting community for ever and ever from those who "see" something happening in high level swings, but have no idea of the hows/whys of what they see . That information is basically that we should drive the rear knee/internally rotate the rear leg to against the upper load to drive the rear hip. This hitter is the result of this type of bad information IMO..........

When a fool back for example, wants to "reverse" the direction of his momentum........IE cut left or right to avoid a defender..........He plants his rear(outside) foot firmly on the ground......And uses EXTERNAL PRESSURE against the ground to quickly create momentum reversal in the core..........Notice that the direction of the pressure into the ground is exposed as EXTERNAL PRESSURE once the reversal is completed and the Center of Mass has shifted........Also notice HOW STABLE his rear knee remains during the reversal........Vs. internally rotating to "cause" the reversal.......

What he wouldn't do is INTERNALLY ROTATE his rear knee first toward the direction of the cut and hope his hips follow...........Because they won't..........As indicated in the hitter above........In the hitter above.....The rear hip is NOT driving the sequence........The rear knee is trying to........

When the hitter understands that the stability of the ground/foot/rear leg pressure direction is responsible for allowing the core muscles surrounding the rear hip to use that stability to reverse the direction of the HIPS (uncoil), he/she will understand "the move"........

Drive the rear hip by using the pressure into the ground to create a "stable platform" for the core muslces surrounding the rear hip to drive the sequence into reversal....

Both coiling and uncoiling should be stablized by the pressure direction of the rear foot into the ground.........Building E/R pressure into the ground at the rear foot during the coil will stablize the rear leg to allow "deep coil"........And use that same pressure direction built up in the coil to create "the platform" for a powerfull uncoil starting into the ground for use by core muscles of the rear hip..........

This hitter for example is NOT driving the uncoil using INTERNAL rotation of the rear leg/knee.........The ground is his platform for his rear hip drive.........The knee action is simply of result of "being in the middle of the 2 ends of the pressure/force" being exerted..........

The more "bend" at the rear knee.......The sooner it will "react" to those pressures.......Giving the "appearance" that it is the driver..........When in fact it is not......

Again, notice the pressure direction of rear foot is exposed as the COM begins to shift....And the heel rises first before any "turning" of the rear foot begins.......

When the pressure is INTERNAL from the middle of the rear leg (knee)......The rear heel will "spin up" early and lose the "platform" to drive the rear hip...........

See the first hitter at the top for an example of the wrong forces at work...........

 

[FPMark]

FPMark ... don't worry about disagreeing with anyone. Anyone taking disagreement personally is not a truth seeker.

I don't use 'thrust' to start the 'uncoil' of the my 'rear leg', which is what is associated with reversing the direction of the rear hip. I simply increase the pressure of pressing against the ground with my rear foot, and this uncoils my 'rear leg', resulting in reversing the direction of my rear hip.Thrusting from my rear hip area follows this, and occurs just after my rear hip has begun to reverse its direction.

Okay, I see what you're saying now and I think we agree. What I was saying was that thrust is not after the compleation of the uncoil sequence but a part of it and happens during it.

What I was saying about the hitter in the video was, I believe she is trying to uncoil 1st, then thrust. In the prosess, she is getting her front hip too far on top of her front leg instead of letting the front leg rotate externaly and lock against the front hip to stop forwad motion. This would alow the rear hip to continue forward to an open position towards the pitcher with her rear knee still up under her head. The "thrust motion" is then the rear hip completeing the uncoil and running into an atempt to 'recoil' around the front hip resulting in a forward motion, ( "The Elvis Move"?), that pulls both hips forward and up against the front leg without useing the rear leg to push up at the end as it does now. In her swing in the video you can see a hop at the end that straightens the rear leg and tries to pole vault over the front leg. The thrust is too late and the front leg doesn't stop forward motion.

This is why I beleive the thrust is a part of a correct uncoil sequence. That is, the thrust is powering the uncoil into the elvis move. IOW, you can't have proper uncoil without thrust, unless you want to squish bugs.

 

[tom.guerry]

what is this pitcher doing ?

http://hittingillustrated.com/images/Beckett2slow.gif

if you can throw you can hit.

 

[Immortal1]

BoardMember, thank you for your input. Lot of good information with regard to understanding "the move"