How many pitches in one day?

[redhack]

redhack,any repetitive motion can cause injury,typing on your keyboard all day can cause injury.slugger is right,conditioning and stamina might allow your dd to pitch longer,but that doesn't mean that after a while that injury won't occur because of over use.

I think the lack of distinction between "injury" and "wear and tear" is disappointing. Golf swings, tennis, free throws, running all can cause wear and tear, and injuries for over use.

I wonder what the "injury" rate is on a drivers accelerator foot for driving 2 hours per day for 20 years.

I worry more about catchers that will not be walking in 20 years from now. Its not from injuries either.

 

[nanotech14]

I wonder what the "injury" rate is on a drivers accelerator foot for driving 2 hours per day for 20 years.

well,I would guess that some drivers will have some effect due to over use,I have to ask you this?do you coach,and do you use the same pitcher for most of the games you play?

 

[redhack]

do you coach,and do you use the same pitcher for most of the games you play?

Yes I coach. And no, I use 4 pitchers. At 12u level, IMO they do not have the body development or conditioning needed to pitch more that 100 pitches without increasing the risk to themselves. One pitcher I had, was only good for 2 innings. Her mechanics break down quickly. She forces the pitch with brute arm strength. To me, she is damaging her shoulder, elbow and wrist. Her dad wanted her to throw 50+ pitches to warm up. At the end of the year she told me she has to ice her arm after every practice due to pain. I spoke with her father about it, but he continues to push for her to pitch more, and "work" through the pain. She is no longer on my team.

IMO at 12u:
Some can pitch 5-6 innings, with an occasional 7-8 if they are quick innings.
Some are only good for 3-4. With some better overall conditioning they could get to 5.
None that should pitch 10 innings. They are not physically developed enough. Risk is not worth the reward.

I know some very good HS pitchers who are done after 7 innings, due to poor core conditioning. I really agree with what Hal says about pitching stamina. There just is not a one size fits all for pitch count.

But, one should always error on the side of caution. I do not know enough about pitching to risk someones child. And I have *****d off parents by saying no more and taking a loss.

 

[sluggers]

wonder what the "injury" rate is on a drivers accelerator foot for driving 2 hours per day for 20 years.

Other than my DD, drivers generally don't accelerate their foot to 60+ mph before pushing down on the brake.

 

[redhack]

Other than my DD, drivers generally don't accelerate their foot to 60+ mph before pushing down on the brake.

So i wonder what the speed of a mouse click is that creates so many RSI injuries.

 

[sluggers]

Article regarding carpal tunnel syndrome from mouse use

Red, you are doing a great job of avoiding overuse of your pitchers. There are a lot of coaches and parent in denial about overuse injuries for pitchers. You use really great guidelines, and I'm sure you've lost games you could have won if you would have ignored the safety of your players. I wish every coach was like you--softball would be safer for the kids.

When parents ask for guidance, we need to say more than "Some kids get injured and some don't. It is a crap shoot. You'll find out when she is 25YOA if she pitched too much. Therefore, don't worry about it."

 

[garyt]

Thanks for all the comments. I'm trying to do what I can to make sure my daughter isn't used too much. She just turned 14.

She got to about 220 pitches and then started having problems so maybe the answer is about 200 pitches for her in a day. She ended up throwing 250. I wouldn't have let her pitch the following day.

 

[left turn]

Recommended Pitch Limits at Second Year 12U

Last year was DD’s first year in tournament ball and she had the opportunity to pitch a lot of innings, many more than the previous year. She ended the season strong and healthy and I would like to see that continue.

“How much is too much” has been a question I have had to attempt to understand. There seem to be many answers. I come from a baseball background and classic pitching limitations are much different for softball.

From reading these discussion strings on pitching limits and talking to local pitching coaches, I developed some personal guidelines to help navigate next year’s softball season.

Exceeding recommended pitching max
• Pitching limits below are general and vary by individual based on durability, physicality, conditioning, athletic ability, efficiency, simplicity of motion and previous max reached
• Recommended max should not be significantly exceeded
• Max exceeded only after careful consideration and additional rest afterwards

Recommended max of consecutive days pitching:
• 12 and younger - 2 consecutive days
• 13 and older - 3 consecutive days

Rest after consecutive days max:
• 2 days rest with no live pitches, including batting practice.
• No hitting or fielding drills on the first rest day
• Pitchers may need to ‘loosen up’ with a flexibility routine on the second rest day and can participate in hitting and field drills.

Max games in a 3 day tourney
• 4 games max in a 3 day tourney
• 1 game Friday, 1 or 2 games on Saturday, 1 or 2 games on Sunday. If 2 games on Saturday then only one on Sunday
• Estimated total pitches for a 3 day tourney
o 6 innings per game x 20 pitches per inning = 120 pitches per game
o 4 games x 120 pitches per game = 480 estimated max pitches in a tourney weekend

Signs the pitcher is ok
• Comfort: Looks comfortable physically and emotionally, throwing free and easy, positive outlook
• Consistency: Pitching process is consistent
• Velocity: Within normal variation
• Accuracy: Typical for that pitcher

Warning signs a pitcher is starting to or has hit her personal limit
• Comfort: Looks physically uncomfortable, labored motion, unhappy or flustered
• Consistency: Pitching process looks different. For example, lowered utilization of lower half of body, unusual changes in the arm circle or rock down
• Velocity: Deteriorating
• Accuracy: Deteriorating
• Time between pitches: Longer than usual
• Favoring any joint or muscle
• Stretching or loosening up arms while pitching, touching or rubbing a muscle or joint

These guidelines are for personal use and discussion and are not intended for publication. Some elements are copied from “American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine” pamphlet “Softball Injury Prevention” located at STOP Sports Injuries | Sports Injury Prevention

Questions:
• The recommended max of 480 pitches in a tournament weekend are significantly higher than American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine recommendations (Softball Injuries | Softball Injury Prevention & Treatment)
o Are 480 pitches over a 3 day tourney weekend OK?
• Another poster suggested that 700 pitches should be the weekly max. This roughly equates to 6 games in a week if only game pitches are counted
o The 700 pitches certainly include games and batting practice. Does this include warm up and practice pitches as well?
o How many 700 pitch weeks can a pitcher have in a row?

Your comments are welcome

 

[left turn]

How many weeks in a row is it safe for a pitcher to throw 700 pitches? (The 700 includes games, batting practice and pitching practice.)

 

[joemcq51]

I am certainly no expert. Being around softball for my whole life, I have seen the day when a team would throw one pitcher every inning of a tournament. When my DD started pitching a few years ago, I thought that she could throw until she was physically tired. Through hours of research and the help of boards like this one, I have made the decision to try and give my DD a couple nights a week off intentionally. Lets say she has a tournament every two weeks in the fall. This has been our routine:

Sat-Sun- Tournament. Pitch between 2-4 games
Mon- Off
Tuesday- lengthy warm ups, just working fastball mechanics. 50-100 pitches
Wed- off
Thursday- Full workout all pitches
Friday- Lengthy warm up, pregame warm up of all pitches
Saturday- Full Workout all pitches
Sunday- Off
Monday- Lengthy warm up, fastball mechanics 50-100 pitches
Tuesday- Full workout all pitches
Wed- Off
Thursday- Full workout all pitches
Friday- Pregame warm up
Sat-Sun Tournament

Now that I give her a few days off in between tournaments, she actually seems sharper and we haven't had any issues with arm, shoulder or back. When she would go every day, she would get sore muscles that would nag for a while. The rest seems to help her heal faster.