Hitting hip and throwing inside

[tomorrow]

She was taught to swim open with her arms, like you see many college pitchers do. However, current PC wanted her to not swim open and pull down. This is where she's at with it right now.

It seems like her shoulders are too inline (lined up with catcher and 2nd base) for the arm to be able to Internally Rotate around the hips. I would think instead of pulling the glove towards the center of the body have it pull more towards the side of the body. This might move some of her balance out of the figure 4 legs and more of a knee-to-knee leg position. The Total goal of having the shoulders just turned a bit more open towards home plate at ball release.

Hitting the thigh with the hand is an unusual issue and pulling the glove in so tight to the center of the body is also a bit unusual. Maybe they are linked.

This is just a rough guess at this issue.

 

[guyonabuffalo]

I said I wouldn't offer correct, but strictly for driving straight out, with my own kid I've found that a basic walk-through to feel the hip and torso position, along with just reminding her over and over about driving straight out, has helped the most.

I was actually thinking the same and was going to work on walk-throughs with her this weekend. Thanks!

 

[guyonabuffalo]

It seems like her shoulders are too inline (lined up with catcher and 2nd base) for the arm to be able to Internally Rotate around the hips. I would think instead of pulling the glove towards the center of the body have it pull more towards the side of the body. This might move some of her balance out of the figure 4 legs and more of a knee-to-knee leg position. The Total goal of having the shoulders just turned a bit more open towards home plate at ball release.

Hitting the thigh with the hand is an unusual issue and pulling the glove in so tight to the center of the body is also a bit unusual. Maybe they are linked.

This is just a rough guess at this issue.

We're at the point of trying rough guesses(lol) but it goes along the lines of what I was thinking as well. I feel she probably needs to be a bit more open at release as she finds it's hard to throw the ball going across her body. Her natural release seems to be right off the hip.

 

[JOHNN]

To me it looks like her arm circle is too far over her head and then also behind her body. This is throwing off the ball path and causing the balls to be thrown inside. When she is hitting her hip, it could also be due to her arm path being too far behind her head,

My daughter had this issue in 10u where she was routinely hitting batters (at least 1 sometimes 2 a game). It took quite a while before we could figure it out until one day I came across a video showing a breakdown of still shots from the rear showing the exact issue we were encountering. We really worked on her arm path alot and the issue has definitely gone away.

 

[ArmWhip]

The terms open and closed are often confused in softball fastpitch pitching. Open is facing sideways, closed is facing home plate. It's confusing because in hitting it seems to be the opposite.

 

[Hillhouse]

Where in Nebraska are you at? We are in Wyoming on the South Eastern side, it's not warm but we could use some pitching help!

I live just outside of Omaha. I have pitchers come to town on weekends pretty regularly, if you ever wanted to take a road trip here, let me know.

 

[Hillhouse]

She throws a turnover but funny thing is her fb has a tendency to drop sometimes, like she's throwing a peel. Tried to get her to replicate because it had good drop on it but she just couldn't do it. If she had to think about it, she couldn't throw it again on purpose. I'll check out the crossfire drill. Thanks for the suggestion.

I'm replying to this one but I wanna address several of your other posts too. I'm not smart enough to know how to post several different quotes of yours into the same message here. And rather than do 3-4 different messages, I'll just make one.

First, there is no such thing as "natural bullet spin". If she has bullet spin, it means she's turning her wrist at the release. That's not natural. What IS natural is the ball rolling off the fingertips at release giving it a 6/12 rotation. Bullet spin means she's turning her wrist, and that is not only messing her spin up but it's also a speed reducer in my opinion. When a pitcher turns the wrist for bullet spin, it means they aren't getting a strong whip of their arm. If they are whipping the elbow as hard as possible, the wrist should naturally follow behind, then the fingers. If something breaks in that sequence: elbow, wrist, then fingers, that means the whip isn't what it should be. Think of baseball for a moment, an overhand curveball is significantly slower than a fastball because they have to twist the wrist to make it spin differently. That twist is what breaks the kinetic snapping sequence from the arm: elbow, wrist then fingers. I know there's some on here who will argue against that and say bullet spin is or can be equally as fast, and I just simply disagree. I've tried to throw my hardest using bullet spin and it's no where near as close to when I snap regularly.

#2. The hardest part about the drop is it's simplicity. You said she gets a drop on her FB, more than the turn over. And I agree that this should be true. But what I can't understand is, why would you continue with a turn over when you get better results with a peel? A FB and a drop (peel) are about 99% identical. The only difference is the release point. That's it. If she can make her FB drop, then that should be your drop. While I get frustrated listening to ESPN announcers on softball games, sometimes I'll have a game on in the background while I'm doing stuff. One of the only things I've heard some of the color commentators say that I agree with is, pitchers needing to eliminate the FB from their pitches as they get older. The older she gets, the better her competition will likely be. I cannot fathom throwing a FB, or any pitch that doesn't have movement on purpose!! Turn your FB into your drop and never look back. There's other reasons I'd advocate against using a turn over drop too but, I'll spare you an even longer post than this one.

#3. did I read it right that you actually had a coach teach her to swim with her glove hand?? Wow, I mean wow. Every pitcher will swim to an extent. The goal is to swim out as little as possible during the pitch. 100% of her energy should be going towards the target. I'm baffled a coach would encourage her to do the opposite of that.

@guyonabuffalo typically if you ask 4 different coaches the same question, you'll get different answers. Similar to how commercials tell you that 4 of 5 dentist recommend something. It always leads me to wonder what the 5th dentist is thinking or why they don't recommend the product too!!! You'll notice that on this forum too, people will have different opinions. But, it really and truly sounds like your daughter has seen some coaches that are teaching some, lets just say "unique" pitching techniques. May I ask, where in Florida do you live?

 

[guyonabuffalo]

First, there is no such thing as "natural bullet spin". If she has bullet spin, it means she's turning her wrist at the release. That's not natural. What IS natural is the ball rolling off the fingertips at release giving it a 6/12 rotation. Bullet spin means she's turning her wrist, and that is not only messing her spin up but it's also a speed reducer in my opinion. When a pitcher turns the wrist for bullet spin, it means they aren't getting a strong whip of their arm. If they are whipping the elbow as hard as possible, the wrist should naturally follow behind, then the fingers. If something breaks in that sequence: elbow, wrist, then fingers, that means the whip isn't what it should be. Think of baseball for a moment, an overhand curveball is significantly slower than a fastball because they have to twist the wrist to make it spin differently. That twist is what breaks the kinetic snapping sequence from the arm: elbow, wrist then fingers. I know there's some on here who will argue against that and say bullet spin is or can be equally as fast, and I just simply disagree. I've tried to throw my hardest using bullet spin and it's no where near as close to when I snap regularly.

I agree there is no such thing as "natural bullet spin", maybe I worded it poorly. What I meant to say is that every time she throws a fastball, it has some sort of spin, usually bullet, or movement to it. It's been like that for as long as I can remember. I will add that recently during a bullpen for poops and giggles, I asked her to focus on rotating her humerus. I felt that she just wasn't getting around quick enough at release, which would make the pitch go inside. Crazy enough, that little cue worked for a few pitches. The spin on her fastballs was 6/12 and I felt it had a quicker pace on it. Unfortunately, that didn't last long and I think she reverted back to her old ways.

#2. The hardest part about the drop is it's simplicity. You said she gets a drop on her FB, more than the turn over. And I agree that this should be true. But what I can't understand is, why would you continue with a turn over when you get better results with a peel? A FB and a drop (peel) are about 99% identical. The only difference is the release point. That's it. If she can make her FB drop, then that should be your drop. While I get frustrated listening to ESPN announcers on softball games, sometimes I'll have a game on in the background while I'm doing stuff. One of the only things I've heard some of the color commentators say that I agree with is, pitchers needing to eliminate the FB from their pitches as they get older. The older she gets, the better her competition will likely be. I cannot fathom throwing a FB, or any pitch that doesn't have movement on purpose!! Turn your FB into your drop and never look back. There's other reasons I'd advocate against using a turn over drop too but, I'll spare you an even longer post than this one.

I would love for her to throw a peel. Whenever her fastball "became" a peel, it was nasty. Problem is she just couldn't replicate it when she needed to. I think she was just thinking too much of actually trying to peel it and the results were subpar to say the least.

#3. did I read it right that you actually had a coach teach her to swim with her glove hand?? Wow, I mean wow. Every pitcher will swim to an extent. The goal is to swim out as little as possible during the pitch. 100% of her energy should be going towards the target. I'm baffled a coach would encourage her to do the opposite of that.

Yeah, I guess when I say swim, she was letting her glove side open, kinda like this video of Montana Fouts below

@guyonabuffalo typically if you ask 4 different coaches the same question, you'll get different answers. Similar to how commercials tell you that 4 of 5 dentist recommend something. It always leads me to wonder what the 5th dentist is thinking or why they don't recommend the product too!!! You'll notice that on this forum too, people will have different opinions. But, it really and truly sounds like your daughter has seen some coaches that are teaching some, lets just say "unique" pitching techniques. May I ask, where in Florida do you live?

The thing I've learned over the years is that pitching and hitting is unique to the individual player. Yes, there are certain, for lack of a better word, absolutes that need to happen but in the end you can't fit every player into a mold and expect them to succeed. Which is pretty much where I'm at with my DD. We're learning to adapt to what comes naturally to her so she can repeat it consistently. I live in Sarasota btw.

 

[ArmWhip]

I agree there is no such thing as "natural bullet spin", maybe I worded it poorly. What I meant to say is that every time she throws a fastball, it has some sort of spin,

When I work with a young or beginning pitcher I don't address the spin issue until they have established the basic mechanics, thus whatever spin they throw is 'natural spin'. Typically they are inconsistent and throw a variety of spins, a high percentage is top spin, bullet spin is also common, but it can swing anywhere between the two.

Since most of my beginners throw some bullet spin it is often the second spin I teach, right after top spin. I tell them to use the same basic wrist-hand position and movement that they use with top spin, they only difference is that with top spin the ball rolls down the fingers and off the tips, with bullet spin the ball comes off between the index finger and the thumb. At the start the ball will usually be wide to the throwing arm side and they will have to learn to correct for that.

My take on spin is that in baseball a 4 seam fastball equates to a top spin fastball (drop) in softball. A slider equates to bullet spin (gyro in baseball). And a BB curve equates to a riseball. I have taught the overhand curve release as a precursor to the riseball, I tell them to think of the rise as an 'up' curve.

 

[SETPRO]

She was taught to swim open with her arms, like you see many college pitchers do. However, current PC wanted her to not swim open and pull down. This is where she's at with it right now.

I find this statement quite confusing. Your daughter was originally taught to swim with open arms "like you see many college pitchers do".

Yet for some reason you have enough confidence in her current PC to totally change this dynamic. What is her current PC trying to achieve with this change??

I am a "newcomer" to the softball world of pitching. But I've spent almost 30 years trying to understand how the very best baseball pitchers throw the baseball. There is significant differences between fastpitch in baseball pitching motions but the physics and biomechanics that govern each are based on the same principles.

Based on my limited time here it seems that there are fundamentally two different schools of instruction.

One based on HE.

The other IR.

In the overhand pitching world HE would be the equivalent of linear throwing mechanics which relies on pushing the ball, extending the body/ arm toward home plate

The overhand pitching equivalent of IR would be rotational throwing mechanics.

The same analogies can be applied to the hitting world.

I would be interested if someone could further my education as to if there is/are other schools of instruction and specifically what gives them legitimacy.

Specific to your daughter she appears to be trying to achieve a hybrid between HE and IR which in my opinion does not work. I say this based upon what I understand to be the dynamics of both HE and IR with respect to their effective implementation.

Again I look forward towards other opinions/observations.