Hitting coaches' philosophy beyond hitting mechanics

[softballphreak]

Does it really matter? Knowing that young girls/ladies/women are at more risk than their male counterparts, doesn't it make sense to re-think how we teach athletic movements that potentially put strain on the knee? 9 months ago my DD did her ACL landing after jumping in VB practice. 3 weeks ago, her SB team mate did her ACL running in a straight line midway between 1B and 2B. I suspect in both cases that were contributing factors that weakened the ACL prior to the blow out. IMO, a high-level BB swing is the objective for both BB and SB players - we just may need to teach it slightly differently in recognition that there are inherent anatomical differences.

The ACL is a ligament. There is no strengthening of a ligament. You strengthen the supporting muscles. But keep in mind that a percentage of the most highly conditioned athletes in the world, both male and female, suffer ligament tears, as well as other joint injuries.

This is a subject that definitely needs discussion. Preventative measures certainly need to be addressed. Comparisons of female vs male, sport vs sport, age vs age, etc., are all important parts of those discussions.

Consider, for a moment, how much time this has consumed on this thread; a thread whose subject was hitting. That's the issue.

If I'm learning how to drive a race car I don't want to keep going back to seat belt safety. I know about seat belt safety. I want to learn to race.

 

[PEPPERS]

Peppers, you aren’t alone with that notion … I’d like to believe that everyone here cares about the kids … that is why we take the time to post & read on such forums.

Same question to you ....

Do you teach different swing mechanics between boys & girls? If so, what are they?

Earlier in your post you gave the impression that there was a baseball coach that was teaching the same swing mechanics that you advocate ... which isn't uncommon, as many believe the swing mechanics between boys & girls should be quite similar. You later write that you promote mechanics that are as "safe as possible" .... Are these "safe as possible" swing mechanics different than what you would teach between boys & girls ... and if so, what is are those different swing mechanics?

At that time the BB coach and I both both practice at an indoor facility in
Chattanooga, TN owned by a couple minor league baseball coaches (one a hitting coach Chattanoga Lookouts, facility has closed) and we read and reviewed a lot of Mike Epstine stuff the coaches helped us with some training for the kids.

I have not in years been asked to help any boys, and the camps due to my daughter have been ran by softball coaches. At this point I would not know how to teach any different than what I learned from them.

 

[Greenmonsters]

The ACL is a ligament.

After 8 months of daily pre- and post-surgery therapy and rehab, no one ever explained that the L in ACL stood for ligament. Thank you.

If I'm learning how to drive a race car I don't want to keep going back to seat belt safety. I know about seat belt safety. I want to learn to race.

Ask yourself this - are the seatbealts used in race or even passenger cars today the same as they were 20-30 years ago? 10 years ago? or even 5 years ago? The effectiveness of seat belts is such that that most new cars have air bag systems. If you die in a car crash because you're not using modern safety restraint equipment your're subsequent improvement as a race car driver is limited.

How many good hitting instructors are teaching the same things using the same methods they did 5, 10 or 20 years ago? What about Candrea and Enquist? Just like the art of hitting, effective teaching, whether it be of the 2nd grade or hitting variety, involves a continual process of adjusting and adapting.

If you want to improve a hitter quickly, buy them a $300 composite and then pay an extra $50 to get it shaved so the ball comes off it as fast as a race car. While that may work for some, anybody that wants me to pay good money to have them teach my DD how to maximize her hitting potential had better be knowledgeable about two things: 1) the fact that female ACLs are more susceptible to injury than male ACLs; and, 2) seatbelt safety.

Nothing personal intended. Just my opinion re a topic that hits close to home.

 

[softballphreak]

After 8 months of daily pre- and post-surgery therapy and rehab, no one ever explained that the L in ACL stood for ligament. Thank you.



Ask yourself this - are the seatbealts used in race or even passenger cars today the same as they were 20-30 years ago? 10 years ago? or even 5 years ago? The effectiveness of seat belts is such that that most new cars have air bag systems. If you die in a car crash because you're not using modern safety restraint equipment your're subsequent improvement as a race car driver is limited.

How many good hitting instructors are teaching the same things using the same methods they did 5, 10 or 20 years ago? What about Candrea and Enquist? Just like the art of hitting, effective teaching, whether it be of the 2nd grade or hitting variety, involves a continual process of adjusting and adapting.

If you want to improve a hitter quickly, buy them a $300 composite and then pay an extra $50 to get it shaved so the ball comes off it as fast as a race car. While that may work for some, anybody that wants me to pay good money to have them teach my DD how to maximize her hitting potential had better be knowledgeable about two things: 1) the fact that female ACLs are more susceptible to injury than male ACLs; and, 2) seatbelt safety.

Nothing personal intended. Just my opinion re a topic that hits close to home.

My statement, "the ACL is a ligament" was a lead-in to my next comment. Thank you for taking it out of context.

My DD tore her ACL playing basketball, finished it off as a catcher backing up 1st. It played a part in motivating her to earn her Doctorate in Physical Therapy so it obviously wasn't so personal to her that it handicapped her.

What hits close to home for me is when female players are considered less than—intentionally, unintentionally, out of concern for safety, or whatever.

I don't believe softball/baseball statistics support all this "sky is falling" junk. Basketball, volleyball, skiing, tennis I can believe. ACL tears while hitting have got to be the exception. And this is a hitting forum.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

SBF ... so far you haven't given an example of swing mechanics being different for females versus males. You didn't seem to like the notion of seeking dynamic balance in the legs when in one's stance ... yet you have given virtually identical advice, but without the explanation of seeking dynamic balance. I followed up with a video clip showing how dynamic balance can be established ... do you feel it is harmful for females to establish dynamic balance in their batting stance ... or is it more the case that females should do this, and that they should also condition their bodies, which is what the studies have basically concluded.

The first thing we teach is balance. Bending at the waist first and softening the knees next in that sequence. It is termed sequential core loading by some and hip hinge angle by others. To test for it simply have the student bend at the waist first and allow the knees to move more towards the toes. To test for it simply push on the back and chest alternately to feel if they are balanced. Then have them soften the knees first and bend at the waist and you will push them off balance as it only works one way.

The female has a lower center of gravity than a male. The female lands up to five times her weight when she jumps and lands and a male lands two and half time their weight. So would a female and male look the same during their stance? Most male coaches that do not understand the differences in the spine of the female verses male try to force the female to stand taller. The spine is more vertical in the female and the male spine is tilted forward. The females center of gravity is also lower. The spine being more vertical allows the female to balance the load of the baby during pregnancy.

Lets look at the glutes for a moment. The glutes do not fire the knees, ACL in a female and they term the movement as more like a ball joint action. The males glutes fire upon jumping or landing automatically and the action is referred as working like a hinge.

This is why we teach throwing first so the female can be taught when they throw they must land on the ball of the foot on a flexed knee.

Notice also that the turning of the hips is a little different in that the hips are larger or more radius as to turning. The space between their legs is also wider. They can feel this by simply putting their hand on a wall and bracing themselves so they can lift their leg up. Then have them take the knee cap and turn towards the pitcher and the thighs will touch. Then have them start the knee cap as RH hitter towards where the second baseman normally plays and it will feel stronger. Most Asian women can bring the knee more towards the pitcher without a problem like Jen Yee does.

Dynamic balance can be felt as when they put their feet together have them stride side ways as if fielding a ground ball between their legs and then have them turn more on the inside of the feet to feel eversion.

The carrying angle of most females is four to ten degrees and presents issues as to clearing the body and breast size and thickness of the chest cavity is unique to each person as the shoulders are narrower and the hips being wider. They can not keep the elbow tucked in as tightly as a male.

female golfers tend to have left shoulder discomfort and lower back pain as a result of carrying angle.

By nature the female is upper body dominate so balance is very important as to weight shift. Also the ACL is at risk due to the hamstring to quad differences as the hamstring is the main stabilizer for the ACL. This is why the PEP program at Santa Monica Sports Med is so important as it focuses on balance and strengthening the hamstring muscles.

Listen to any woman come down a set of stairs and listen to how hard they land verses a male and ask why?

Why do girls throw like girls? As we explain we want them to throw like an athlete.

Are the swing mechanics similar? Most would agree. We think it is how you teach them as to understanding the strengths and body differences.

Dr. David Marshall of Children's Hospital Atlanta feels the neuro muscular skills develop earlier in boys than girls and cites examples of boys throwing rocks, running up and down hills and uneven surfaces at a younger age than girls as a possible reason.

Sort of a long-winded answer to basically say … “No, I do not feel it is harmful for females to establish dynamic balance in their batting stance”.

Also, I appreciate that you confirm your understanding that most agree that the swing mechanics are the same between the genders … which I guess answers the next part … “yes, the female swing is the same, but they need to condition themselves so as to limit injuries”.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Does anyone know of any studies showing the percentage of fastpitch players who tear their ACL while hitting?

The reason I ask is because every time I read an article on increased ACL injuries in women, the articles are typically not conclusive and refer to women running, jumping and cutting differently than men. For instance here is a quote from one of the articles linked to in this thread.

"Women may be more prone to non-contact ACL injuries because they run and cut sharply in a more erect posture than men, and bend their knees less when landing from a jump."

Notice the words "May be". Notice the activities they are referring to. Hitters don't typically run, cut or jump in the batter's box. Just wondering if there is any documented proof that ACL injuries are an issue for women when hitting? Or, do most ACL injuries in fastpitch occur playing defense or running the bases?

Did Jenny Topping's first ACL tear in 1999 happen in the batter's box?

Wellphyt ... I'm not familiar with any such studies of fastpitch players experiencing ACL tears while hitting.

It is unfortunate that some here learned the lesson the hard way, and had daughters that experienced injuries. To the best of my knowledge, no one here wanted that to happen.

The lesson to be learned is not that females should swing a bat differently, but that females … especially those engaging in athletic activities … should train so as to be properly conditioned to limit such injuries.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

At that time the BB coach and I both both practice at an indoor facility in
Chattanooga, TN owned by a couple minor league baseball coaches (one a hitting coach Chattanoga Lookouts, facility has closed) and we read and reviewed a lot of Mike Epstine stuff the coaches helped us with some training for the kids.

I have not in years been asked to help any boys, and the camps due to my daughter have been ran by softball coaches. At this point I would not know how to teach any different than what I learned from them.

Thank you Peppers. I also teach both genders similarly. Just as I don't think it is wise for a female to injure themselves, I don't think it's a good idea for a male to do that either.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Ask yourself this - are the seatbealts used in race or even passenger cars today the same as they were 20-30 years ago? 10 years ago? or even 5 years ago? The effectiveness of seat belts is such that that most new cars have air bag systems. If you die in a car crash because you're not using modern safety restraint equipment your're subsequent improvement as a race car driver is limited.

How many good hitting instructors are teaching the same things using the same methods they did 5, 10 or 20 years ago? What about Candrea and Enquist? Just like the art of hitting, effective teaching, whether it be of the 2nd grade or hitting variety, involves a continual process of adjusting and adapting.

If you want to improve a hitter quickly, buy them a $300 composite and then pay an extra $50 to get it shaved so the ball comes off it as fast as a race car. While that may work for some, anybody that wants me to pay good money to have them teach my DD how to maximize her hitting potential had better be knowledgeable about two things: 1) the fact that female ACLs are more susceptible to injury than male ACLs; and, 2) seatbelt safety.

Nothing personal intended. Just my opinion re a topic that hits close to home.

Greenmonsters ... it's really simple. The concept that many of us subscribe to is "build the athlete first".

Just as "you" want a hitting instructor to be knowledgeable of female ACL injuries ... many "instructors" consider it a waste of their time if their hitters don't buy into the concept of "building the athlete first".

I've actually discouraged people from being in my hitting sessions when it was clear that they weren't going to take the concept seriously.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

My statement, "the ACL is a ligament" was a lead-in to my next comment. Thank you for taking it out of context.

My DD tore her ACL playing basketball, finished it off as a catcher backing up 1st. It played a part in motivating her to earn her Doctorate in Physical Therapy so it obviously wasn't so personal to her that it handicapped her.

What hits close to home for me is when female players are considered less than—intentionally, unintentionally, out of concern for safety, or whatever.

I don't believe softball/baseball statistics support all this "sky is falling" junk. Basketball, volleyball, skiing, tennis I can believe. ACL tears while hitting have got to be the exception. And this is a hitting forum.

Softballphreak ... congratulations to your daughter. You have every reason to be proud. Nice to see people engaging in an activity of helping people out. She probably takes after one of her parents.

 

[softballphreak]

Softballphreak ... congratulations to your daughter. You have every reason to be proud. Nice to see people engaging in an activity of helping people out. She probably takes after one of her parents.

Thank you. She helps people in a very tangible way. Literally. She is what the Mckenzie Institute confers as Credentialed. The group she is with saves a high percentage of patients from undergoing unnecessary back or neck surgery.