Hips open or closed?

[Mark H]

I don't think I answered my own question. I'm asking do any of you teach no hip rotation until release. Still yet to be answered

When my youngest was trying to pitch some ten years ago we went to a Hillhouse clinic and he preached the hips followed the shoulders. Some ten years before that there was an instructor active on fastpitch forum whose name escapes me now who taught leaving the hips open.

 

[Ken B]

When my youngest was trying to pitch some ten years ago we went to a Hillhouse clinic and he preached the hips followed the shoulders. Some ten years before that there was an instructor active on fastpitch forum whose name escapes me now who taught leaving the hips open.

John Gay?

....

 

[Mark H]

I believe you are right. Thanks.

 

[Ken B]

I believe John advocated for open as he felt it made it easier to spin the ball. In chatting with him a few months ago, he said he had softened his stance on it--even in semi-retirement he was studying and evolving! I think the focus on open is what made many of his pitchers known for their rise balls.

On a sad note, his health is not well. Please keep his family and friends in thoughts and prayers. John will be honored along with Ed Maxwell at VGSA on March 6th. Hoping he's able to attend. Vancouver Girls Softball Association

 

[Mark H]

I'll repeat what I said on the other thread, my best wishes to John. Don't know if he remembers me but I always found him to be a gentleman and one of the good guys.

 

[Hillhouse]

Hey all,
Let me start again with giant THANK YOU for all you do on here. I can't tell you what an aid it has been for me and DD this winter. Anyway, my question is in relation to the hips. There are some active threads on this forum right now touching on it. I have also read a lot of previous threads that discuss it. It seems like there is a difference in belief about whether the hips should be open on release or at a 45'-ish angle.
A great many of the model pitchers posted are completely open on release and seem to make slight BI contact in front of the hip, just at the belly. Then a lot of them like Ueno are practically closed at the point of BI.
I very recently read a post where someone's PC suggested to have the hips more closed on release and the response was, "he's an idiot". Haha.
The main reason I ask is because I am working on this with my DD now and I don't want to go back to her in 2 weeks and say that classic line, "Remember what I told you to do 2 weeks ago? Stop doing that."

Thanks.

Mountain, i did not read through this entire thread so I'm sure you got plenty of answers. But, for me this is very simple. If you look at an ASA rulebook you'll notice a game called "modified pitch". Sometimes it's erroneously called "modified fastpitch". There are 2 kinds of modifed: 9 man played like a normal game where the pitcher can only slingshot, no windmill. And 10man which includes an extra fielder and severe restrictions put on the pitcher for his/her motion. The entire point of the 10man modified pitching rules is to eliminate the pitcher's power. This includes, but not limited to, turning the hips to be open, snapping or whipping the elbow (arm has to be straight) and ball pointed to 2nd base at 12:00 position.

Now, when you see what these rules are and what they are designed for (no power pitching, just 21-20 score games) you will see it's almost exactly the opposite of what a fastpitch pitcher needs to do to gain power.

If I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about the hips as long as her arm is clearing them and not whacking her arm against her hip or side. Remember the hips should PUSH the arm through so the arm has to go first. Otherwise, you're pitching around the hips and likely throwing a lot of inside pitches (RH pitcher vs. RH hitter). Much of the hip direction is controlled by the front foot. The body has a tendency to go the direction of the toes, so turn the toes "open" and the hips will follow. Point the toes straight, the hips stay straight. Another phrase that my be helpful to keep her open is "hide the back shoulder from the catcher". If she does that, she's sideways.

Bill

 

[Ken B]

If I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about the hips as long as her arm is clearing them and not whacking her arm against her hip or side. Remember the hips should PUSH the arm through so the arm has to go first. Otherwise, you're pitching around the hips and likely throwing a lot of inside pitches (RH pitcher vs. RH hitter).

I agree there shouldn't be any whacking, but wanted to clarify the rest. From what I can tell, many very good pitchers tuck the elbow in behind the hip bone and wrap/roll the forearm around the hip socket:

 

[Ken B]

Here's better shots of Kirkpatrick and Folkard:

 

[riseball]

I agree there shouldn't be any whacking, but wanted to clarify the rest. From what I can tell, many very good pitchers tuck the elbow in behind the hip bone and wrap/roll the forearm around the hip socket:

I have found that helps greatly on the curve ball. Jakes teammate at Chipola, Ilona Andringa throws for the Dutch National Team and for Kelsi Dunn at Embry Riddle. She significantly wraps the forearm causing the pitch look like it just explodes from her hip.

 

[Ken B]

Hoping Bill can stop by and clarify: "arm before hip" and "pitching around the hip." In this thread, I thought I understood him advocating for brush: https://www.discussfastpitch.com/so...ect-circle-pitchers-training-aid-any-use.html