"Hello elbow"

[Greenmonsters]

Greenmonsters, you make some valid points but you have got to agree that what some of these people are teaching is so far fetched that if this were the medical field it would be malpractice. It would also qualify as gross negligence. I think there needs to be a governing body or something that comes out with the standards for pitching that covers what Gillis and Hillhouse teach are the "absolutes". This would get these pretenders out of the game.

IMO, IR is the way to go and BM seems to do a good job teaching it. However, at one point in time people had no reason to believe that the earth wasn't flat. Is what we are teaching and was accepted in BB/SB now different than 20 years ago? Yes. Will that be the case 20 years from now? Maybe, who knows?. We always should continue learning and questioning in order to do a better job. I simply take issue with BM publicly discrediting the integrity of someone he doesn't know.

 

[CoachFP]

CoachFP, I've seen many of Rita's students in local showcases in my area and her pitchers do very well.

Maybe they could do better without her?

 

[CoachG]

There aren't enough pitching instructors in my area and the ones that do teach either hello elbow or have long waiting list. I personally like the back and forth between boardmember and screwball and the truth is if I were in their neck of the woods, I wouldn't waste any time in taking my dd to them for pitching instruction.

 

[howellhandmade]

BoardMember, on your IR in the classroom thread I posted a question about moving IR from partial circle drills, where it's happening, to the full motion, where it's not. It must have gone unnoticed, so I'm mentioning it here since this thread obviously has your eye. : )

Thanks

 

[Ken Krause]

Enough with the arguing and personal crap. Let's stay on-topic.

 

[oktwistersgold]

We do not use "hello elbow", in fact never seen the term before tody. We do teach palm toward the plate and at the snap drive straight thru and up. This should be like a catapult at the elbow. I do believe that allowing the arm to fly up and loose or "hello elbow" is a missed opportunity to add speed by resistance. Also any movement other than straight thru, like finishing across the body or having to come around the hip is taking away speed. Just what we teach not the end all best way.

video showing what we teach: CHEYENE POWELL SKILLS VIDEO CLASS OF 2014 - YouTube

 

[crystlemc]

There are a couple issues I would like to address, oktwistersgold.

1. All power in sports happens across the body. A slap shot, field goal kick, goal kick, golf swing, tennis serve...etc. ad nauseum.

2. When a baseball pitcher finishes, how does he follow through? Across the body. Not straight down to throwing side. And we are just doing the same motion upside down.

3. If a girl pitches with open mechanics, it is impossible to finish the way you are teaching. So, if you are teaching closed mechanics, there is part of the problem.

4. If you are teaching girls that finishing in that manner adds extra "oomph", then you are teaching them to muscle the ball, which will eventually result in major injury.

Also, if you slow down the video that you posted, you will see that your student does, in fact, finish more across the body. Then she forces her arm back up and over.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

We do not use "hello elbow", in fact never seen the term before tody. We do teach palm toward the plate and at the snap drive straight thru and up. This should be like a catapult at the elbow. I do believe that allowing the arm to fly up and loose or "hello elbow" is a missed opportunity to add speed by resistance. Also any movement other than straight thru, like finishing across the body or having to come around the hip is taking away speed. Just what we teach not the end all best way.

video showing what we teach: CHEYENE POWELL SKILLS VIDEO CLASS OF 2014 - YouTube

Okt ... did you write this in jest to get BM going again?

Look closely at Cheyene's pitching motion. Do you really see the palm toward the plate AND a snap drive straight thru and up? That isn't what I see.

You speak of finishing across the body in a negative light ... but if you watch Cheyene closely she follows through up the center-line of her body ... and only then attempts to fool you by pulling the hand back to make it look like a "happy elbow" type pull-up pitch to those not watching closely enough.

Basically ... BM's IR action is "anti happy elbow". It is a pitching motion very much like what Bill Hillhouse, Mike White, Doug Gillis, and other solid instructors teach.

If I didn't know any better ... I'd say this girl was taught a happy elbow approach, and seems to be fooling her instructors into thinking that is how she pitches.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

There are a couple issues I would like to address, oktwistersgold.

1. All power in sports happens across the body. A slap shot, field goal kick, goal kick, golf swing, tennis serve...etc. ad nauseum.

2. When a baseball pitcher finishes, how does he follow through? Across the body. Not straight down to throwing side. And we are just doing the same motion upside down.

3. If a girl pitches with open mechanics, it is impossible to finish the way you are teaching. So, if you are teaching closed mechanics, there is part of the problem.

4. If you are teaching girls that finishing in that manner adds extra "oomph", then you are teaching them to muscle the ball, which will eventually result in major injury.

Also, if you slow down the video that you posted, you will see that your student does, in fact, finish more across the body. Then she forces her arm back up and over.

Thank you for this post. From my perspective, BM's whole IR campaign is basically to discredit the nonsense that Okt speaks of. Instead of just saying "don't do the 'happy elbow'" ... he's providing a description of what to do instead ... which is an improvement over simply "don't do the 'happy elbow'".

 

[BoardMember]

We do not use "hello elbow", in fact never seen the term before tody. We do teach palm toward the plate and at the snap drive straight thru and up. This should be like a catapult at the elbow.

Twister........Welcome to the forum.

This young lady throws pretty well.........That being said however........She doesn't throw anything like what you describe as a "palm forward-elbow catapult".........Which by definition is a "hello-elbow" push style delivery.

A lot my focus in this pitching forum has been dedicated to helping people understand exactly how higher level pitchers actually do throw the ball, and start from the beginning actually teaching that mechanism properly to give more kids a chance to reach their potential much earlier in the journey..........Vs. teaching stuff like "Palm forward".......and "Elbow catapult".......And waiting for them to stumble into how it really works.........Which can happen for some.......And never for others..........

In other words........STOP coaches from teaching kids what DOES NOT happen.....In hopes they "stumble" into proper mechanics...........And get them to start teaching WHAT DOES HAPPEN..........So it IS NOT an accident...........

From what you describe about what you teach........Cheyene's mechanics are an "accident".......And not a cause of the teaching she's received........And IMO, is the reason why only about 10% of the pitchers we teach reach a level of proficiency to throw at the highest levels..........

FYI, Cheyene's elbow doesn't even bend, let alone "catapult" until the ball is more then half way to the plate and her arm is almost level with her shoulder. And her palm doesn't face "forward" for more then a millisecond during the release point.........

Infact, as the ball moves down the back of the circle, her elbow is down, and the palm and ball are facing the sky (up) and NOT forward toward the target. As she moves down toward the release zone.........INternal rotation (I/R) of the bicep (humerus bone), forearm, wrist and fingers propel the ball toward the target......

In other words, the delivery mechanism rotates almost 240 degrees, from palm/ball up behind her, to palm inward in front of her.......

Palm/ball up behind her, to palm INward in front of her.......An I/R delivery.......And NOT "palm forward-elbow catapult"............

She "bends her elbow" long after release, and only because that's what she's been taught to do........And it has zero effect on the actual delivery of the ball itself.......Whether she bent her elbow or not at this point would have zero effect on her delivery........Obviously........

I do believe that allowing the arm to fly up and loose or "hello elbow" is a missed opportunity to add speed by resistance. Also any movement other than straight thru, like finishing across the body or having to come around the hip is taking away speed. Just what we teach not the end all best way.

I'm not an advocate for finishing "across the body" as an "end goal", except for curveball (more open) or certain forms of change up.........The fact is, if you are open from the target at release at all, and you are throwing down the target line, you will be throwing slightly across your body AT/THROUGH release anyway..........

The idea of throwing across your body has more to do with making sure you stay slightly open (or more) through the release phase to prevent injury to the glenohumeral (shoulder) joint, and allowing the muscles that PULL the arm down through the circle to work properly.......IE PULLING down the circle (as Cheyene does) vs. PUSHING down the circle which is more typical of "closed to the target" push style pitchers..........