"Hands" terminology

[Not_Enuf_Mustard]

I’m hoping I can get some clarification regarding some terminology.

“Getting the Hands Flat”
I've seen this used on this board.
I understand palm up palm down. Is that related to getting the hands flat?

“Live and independent hands”
Not sure where I picked this up. Possiblly Candrea?
At what point do the hands become live and independent and what are they doing that make them live and or independent?

 

[straightleg]

Yes. Same thing
Most people who teach hitting believe the sooner this happen's in the swing the better.


How you get them flat is where people disagree "DING" The bell sounds. Round 3



Straightleg

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

SL ... the two concepts ... "getting the hands flat" and "live & independent hands" are different.

Candrea's RVP clip states the following. The hitter’s hands & elbows need to become independent of their shoulders and hips so the back elbow can initiate the swing and all the forces can then be added back together to produce a strong fluid swing.

Mike uses a “bat tipping” drill to demonstrate the “live & independent hands” concept.

In Candrea’s lesson he gives an example of a gated swing as an incorrect example. He also gives an example of laying the bat back towards the pitcher as an incorrect example. Both can get the hands flat … but both don’t allow “live & independent hands”.

 

[straightleg]

The part I meant the same was Getting the hands flat and Palm up / Palm down



Straightleg

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Thanks SL, that makes more sense.

IMO the "live and independent hand" action concept is more related to the "bypass" concept promoted by HI, or what Charley Lau Jr's concept of pulling the knob with the hands & not the shoulders.

 

[BoardMember]

Hands Flat......Or Getting Flat.......Or Flattening........

Lets review what the ACTUAL term of "Getting the Hands Flat" means........

Which is NOT the same as palm up palm down at contact. Becaise the top hand is NOT palm up at the point flattening occurs. Althouh it is a "precursor" to that action.

And is NOT the same as live and independent hands, which refers to the hands NOT being locked to the shoulders, so they load independently to create stretch/separation and torque, AND to allow for adjustments as the swing progresses...........

Watch these 2 clips and pick up the red lines on the hands at the start and in the middle.......

Kents hands START FLAT........And move seamlessly though contact......

Bonds hands GET FLAT from his particular style......Or they are "flattening" closer to being in the plane of the swing........Although he never stops his motion.......Bonds is "getting flat" early........

In other words......FLAT HANDS or "flattening" is reletive to the plane of the swing..........Some flatten......Some are already fairly flat.......

Depends on the particular STYLE of the hitter........

I'd also like to note that Kents Lead Elbow Starts UP........Bonds "gets up" during the flattening move......

 

[tom.guerry]

see excerpt from Epstein near bottom of this page on early flat hands/torque:

- Chris O'leary's Hitter

a good description of hands at contact is "palmup extension" of the back arm, ideally with "top hand wrist still unbroken or at least not rolling"(WIlliams).

The lead wrist unhinges for about 2 frames (30fps) into contact. once this unhinging is underway, the lead forearm can also start supinating which rolls the lead wrist some which is why the lead hand palm is often facing back a little at contact. what needs to be avoided at contact is breakdown/dorsiflexion of the lead wrist or pronation/roll of the back wrist before contact.

in the hight level swing/swing that resembles overhand throw, the elbows need to be well spread out early to efficiently torque the handle of the bat (Epstein early torque above). approaching contact, the elbows get closer together for the right sturcture of bathead release.

this also means you need a grip that accomodates both these without forcing wrist bind that interferes with bathead acceleration/release or wobbles the swing plane.

GUP has the slaught/candrea live and independent hands thing well described as essential for good connection/summation. This is also related the front shoulder staying in there/not flying open

 

[JC heir]

One of the hands cues that I really hate is.... " keeping the hands inside the ball ", or keeping the hands inside the path of the ball. That is a cue that just doesnt make any sense, because if you get your hands outside the path of the ball, you are going to get hit in the forearm with the pitch.

 

[tom.guerry]

with regard to BM's Kent/Bonds comparison, notice at "launch" (at start of GO/when shoulders start to TILT) which is about where he has drawn the red lines how similar they are. this is analagous to the observation first emphasized by by Lau Sr after his intense video study of a universal "launch position" in the MLB swings Lau looked at.

the actual earlier hand positioning or "handset" will require different styles getting to this universal launch position, but even during this very different looking earlier "style" there is a universal sequence similar to overhand throw loading. In particular universally, both Kent and Bonds are cocking and uncocking the bat with the primary action being internal rotation then abduction/extension then external rotation of the back arm.

likewise in overhand throw, when you break the hands, there is the same sequence.

if you can throw, you can it.

it is generally easier to learn this sequence where there is larger range of motion as with learning it first in the throw, or if learning it the swing, learning it with more motion such as Bonds (lowering/raising/"hitching" hands) or styles that include a prominent stride as opposed to no-stride.

Quiet hands or no-stride makes learning the action/sequence VERY difficult. better to exaggerate range of motion then quiet things down/streamline them once the pattern is consistent.

 

[tom.guerry]

it is confusing out there, for comparison here is Gwynn's latest (which as he says may surprise you because he never desribed it this way before):

YouTube - Hitting 101 By Tony Gwynn December 2009

1- rear leg balance (similar to the way you balance early in overhand throw)

2- swing/throw knob not barrel (similar to live and independent hands, not emphasizing how this might relate to starting barrel REARward which is useful info in my opinion).