hands in the swing

[clemenslee1]

I don't see that.

I don't see that either, I'm also not say they're pushing either but, they're intentionally moving their hands. At least to me.

 

[_MIA_]

This is hands along for the ride imo:

 

[efastball]

Back elbow up at toe touch certainly is a good thing to strive for if a kid does have bat dag, ..., but it is not an absolute

Thanks for bringing this topic up. It's somewhat important.

From 2000 through early 2015, I defended/promoted the elbow 'up' absolute, and posted a couple of web pages about it. It's mostly right, and it would probably never hurt a kid to learn it this way.

Of course the two players you point out, Molitor and Kent, I discuss here. http://efastball.com/hitting/should-the-back-elbow-be-up-or-down/. They used elbow 'up' and elbow 'down'. But there were other former players with swings bothered me about this 'absolute' - Mantle, Aaron, etc.

Then in early 2015 I realized the absolute throughout history is not necessarily elbow 'up', but it's that the rear forearm must be generally flat/level at toe touch. In 2015 I changed my web pages to reflect this. (Sadly, I have not made many changes to the site since then.)

 

[clemenslee1]

This is hands along for the ride imo:

If a hitter such as torres here just has hands along for a ride, how does he adjust to different pitch locaions?

 

[_MIA_]

If a hitter such as torres here just has hands along for a ride, how does he adjust to different pitch locaions?

Probably from pre launch adjustments to his body positioning and late adjustments with his hands. To me hands along for the ride mean the hands initially just follow the body rotation.

 

[clemenslee1]

Probably from pre launch adjustments to his body positioning and late adjustments with his hands. To me hands along for the ride mean the hands initially just follow the body rotation.

Thanks this helps me understand that better.

 

[efastball]

If a hitter such as torres here just has hands along for a ride, how does he adjust to different pitch locaions?

Are we talking about pitch locations inside the strike zone?

If we're talking about off plate, on the plate etc., then I'm guessing everyone will agree that the hands and body will contort to adjust.

Are we talking about being fooled by the timing of a pitch? Again, I don't think anyone would argue that you would have to push your hands/arms to reach for an unexpected curve ball.

So, that leaves us discussing perfectly timed pitches inside the strike zone.

Here is a frame with 3 different pitch heights, where shoulder tilt is the biggest factor. (Note the far left is above the strike zone)



And here is Pete Rose hitting a ball on outside edge of the plate, where he did not have to push his hands beyond the perfect circle.


I don't think I have a good example clip for inside pitches over the plate.

So there's pretty good evidence that the hands go with the torso rotation and the shoulder tilt when the ball is inside the strike zone and you timed it correctly.

If you think about it for a moment, the leverage and physics would say that the hands should stay in that 'slot' (the red lines and the circular dots), or the swing speed would be less optimal.

 

[Shawn]

I have clips of Molitor and Kent with back forearm level/parallel to the ground. There are few and far between of hitters who don't achieve this position at toe touch. If the swing is a throwing action, then you can throw much better with the elbow at shoulder level and the back forearm level with the ground.

Of course there are other metrics to the launch position besides the back elbow/forearm position. Like the shoulders being turned in 30/35 degrees at toe touch.

 

[_MIA_]

I have clips of Molitor and Kent with back forearm level/parallel to the ground. There are few and far between of hitters who don't achieve this position at toe touch. If the swing is a throwing action, then you can throw much better with the elbow at shoulder level and the back forearm level with the ground.

Of course there are other metrics to the launch position besides the back elbow/forearm position. Like the shoulders being turned in 30/35 degrees at toe touch.

absolute: a value or principle which is regarded as universally valid or which may be viewed without relation to other things.

I don't disagree with you but I said it wasn't an absolute in good hitters and based upon the above definition my two examples make it not one if you consider Molitor and Kent to be good hitters. That is all I was saying.

 

[Cornbread]

Doesn’t Mike Epstein teach back elbow down? Maybe Moliter and Kent were taught this method. It’s not a method I would teach and it’s something that I would try to fix if I were instructing the hitter. But like others have said, some of the best hitters ever had back elbow lower. I think Ted Williams said he never wanted the hands higher than a high strike. You can load your scap from a bunch of different elbow heights. Would y’all agree that some type of pull back is an absolute?