Hand Speed vs Bat Speed thru the swing

[fanboi22]

What I took from TDS' post was that the hands move to a spot in space based on what the brain is telling them about the incoming pitch and create a pivot point at that spot.

What is pivoting at that spot?

 

[2br02b]

What is pivoting at that spot?

Top hand resistance or torque causing the barrel to turn. Easiest for me to see in Miggy GIF with only top hand.

 

[fanboi22]

Top hand resistance or torque causing the barrel to turn. Easiest for me to see in Miggy GIF with only top hand.

Got it. I never thought of the hand pivot going up down or out based on the pitch. I thought the tilt of the torso followed the path of the ball, tilting more for lower and less for higher pitch. at that point the hand pivot point was still around the shoulder and then extends out from body on outside pitch or staying in longer as the body rotates to get an inside pitch.

I guess at the end of the day, my question is still, wherever that pivot point is, is there an attempt to keep top hand forearm perpendicular to the rotating barrel, or does the wrist hinge allowing the barrel to lag and creating a similar hand and bat speed until barrel whip? The GIF seems to look that way.

 

[Shawn]

I asked this in another thread but curious anyones thought. It may give me clarity on bat lag and pivot point thoughts.

Does the bat speed ever equal or get close to the speed of the hands during the swing. I thought i saw a zepp article on this but cannot find it.

The question is based on comparing a pivot point with your hands that the barrel turns around which is a rigid point. So just like thinking of a wheel where the farther in the wheel you go the slower it spins, the farther out, the more distance it has to travel and hence, faster. i think this would require stiff hands to hold the barrel out perpendicular to the forearms.

vs, starting with a your hands in a similar position that then starts to get the bat into a lag position after the initial turn (not keeping perpendicular) where the bat and the hands are essentially moving forward at the same rate, eventually snapping the wrists and the barrel accelerates to contact. Like the loose and oily i have heard in the past.

as i have tried to have my DD just pivot around ala tewks and others, i think that may be a good start to the swing but think the magic may happen just after that when the hands and the barrel match speeds then the barrel takes off and whips into impact.

This is all assuming the same essential bat path. thanks.

I call it an "rotational point", the hands/forearms, along with the back hip being an rotational point.

So the two of them set up a deep rotational point.

 

[Shawn]

Does that mean that the closer the hands are to the body the (potentially) faster the barrel speed? At what point does it become a hindrance rather than a boon?

Doesn't it really mean not having the barrel to far away from the body? In slow motion the barrel gets pretty close to the back shoulder in their forward and down motion.

 

[Shawn]

i suppose it depends on your definition of launch and pivot. What i think as launch is when the swing starts, ie the first frame of a swing if you talk about a 5 frame swing. Any tip and doen't count, only when the lower and upper body engines start.

Some believe that the 'lauch' is sometime downstream when the hands 'release' the barrel into contact.

As far as the pivot, i see it as the hand pivot point by the shoulder when the swing launches (my launch.) So for me the launch starts the swing with a hand pivot point as the body turns on plane........this then is my question.

Is the pivot a rigid pivot trying to keep the barrel accelerating on an arc outside the hands. Or is it a loose pivot where the top wrist flexes (i do not know the correct terminology) to create a lesser angle 'V' with barrel and forearm.

If it is a rigid pivot (sort of what i see in some demonstrations) then the barrel would always be a greater speed relative to the hands. In a loose wrist pivot, the lowering of the angle in the 'V' is where i am asking if there is bat lag. if there is, and the hands move forward, like the above bottom GIF, then the barrel can have the same speed as the hands until the hands get away from the body and start to release the wrists to whip the barrel out to contact.

My DD was considered rotational by some on the board here, and i am trying to understand why/how. I believe this concept of bat lag, is not a bad thing, but actually a requirement to a high level swing. and to get enough bat speed.

This does not preclude any of the ideas of getting on plane or an initial TTB to get the bat up to speed, but it makes me think of the drill in the hall of shame thread where they were hitting soft toss right next to a fence. I may have to rethink that there may be something there.

Again, i saw a Zepp video/article where it showed that low level younger swings never had the lag, and the barrel speed was always faster than the hands and accelerating up. The high level MLB player had lag and barrel speed the same or close to the same as hand speed until that whip action. I actually looked at some reading of my DD with a couple different swings and saw the same thing. The problem was i thought the correct approach was to TTB which created that around motion and always had the barrel accelerating faster.

i am thinking the bat lag is very important. This also then helps me understand when the Pro's say that they swing A to B. They probably do, but the sequence and body angles are already there and on plane when they lag the barrel A to B into whip and contact.

not sure if this makes sense.

I would say in the double pendulum keeping the wrists cocked and creating bat lag is a recipe for high batspeed. Although, can you generate lower batspeeds of 80 to 90 mph and still hit the ball really well? Is TTB quicker then bat lag, release? Does one get on plane sooner with greater consistency with TTB?

 

[Shawn]

What is pivoting at that spot?

This spot doesn't have to be at the shoulder, it can be farther back then the shoulder.

 

[rdbass]

The hand 'pivot point' in this gif is at the shoulder/arm pit area. The end of the gif is the release/unhinging of the wrist/hands of the swing into the ball at 'possible' ball location.

 

[2br02b]

The hand 'pivot point' in this gif is at the shoulder/arm pit area. The end of the gif is the release/unhinging of the wrist/hands of the swing into the ball at 'possible' ball location.

It is hard for me to take one handed top hand motions as "real" because the only way for the knob to move forward is to push.

 

[fanboi22]

I would say in the double pendulum keeping the wrists cocked and creating bat lag is a recipe for high batspeed. Although, can you generate lower batspeeds of 80 to 90 mph and still hit the ball really well? Is TTB quicker then bat lag, release? Does one get on plane sooner with greater consistency with TTB?

Thanks, I guess your questions are my questions. I believe there is an initial TTB to get the bat on plane which is supported by the HPP until the release of the barrel ‘whip’ to the ball. I don’t think that TTB is the same thing as bat lag and are mutually exclusive. One TTB’s to get to a point on plane then the hands move forward on plane and bat lag is created. I think they are used in series to get the optimal swing.