Glute activation...

[jryan15]

You're not thread jacking by any means. Your comments are helpful and exactly why I started the thread to discuss .

Would you say an imbalance of the muscles also contributes?

Yes, I think you are right on discussing muscle imbalances. Right side / left side are one form of imbalances that could lead to issues. Also a single leg by itself can have it's own imbalances (quad dominant, tight/weak hip flexors, weak hamstrings, weak glutes, etc). These type of issues are very hard to isolate (this is where DD is right now). It is not easy to target glutes since most prescribed exercises still allow the dominant muscles to do most of the work thus widening the imbalance.

In what I've read, the posterior drive chain is a fickle beast. Either you have it working (could be weak or strong), or you could be broken (maybe from a history of ankle injuries). If it's working, continued sport specific training improves all the muscle groups correctly (for the most part). If however yours is broken (for whatever reason), continued sport specific training could likely lead to even larger muscle imbalances thus making it even harder to recover from.

For athletes, every year is a filter. Every year more low performers drop out. Every year kids who haven't kept up in strength development face a tough decision to quit or to keep working, even though they might be stuck on the bench.... The athletic nature of sports continues to filter out people with posterior strength issues. Because of this, I don't think that many kids ever recover from major glute activation issues... No one knows to look for it. Even if they do, it is very hard to diagnose, isolate, and correct. Furthermore continued sport specific training with the issue makes it even less likely to get fixed.

These kids still improve but at a handicapped pace compared to the rest of the field... IMO these kids eventually quit and take up a new hobby and go through life none the wiser...

 

[mmeece]

[MENTION=9236]FP26[/MENTION] Thanks for the share. That is an excellent article. I have noticed myself that my glutes are most sore from certain bodyweight exercises, pistol squats in particular.

 

[jryan15]

[MENTION=9236]FP26[/MENTION] Thanks for the share. That is an excellent article. I have noticed myself that my glutes are most sore from certain bodyweight exercises, pistol squats in particular.

Thank you mmeece! That is exactly what I'm talking about! When DD and I do things like pistol squats (I can only go a little way nowadays ), there is ZERO feeling in the glutes... It feels 100% quad.

What is worse yet, when we do those exercises, our quads get even stronger and the glutes continue to be left in the dust. So we still make improvements cause our quads got stronger, but you made a much bigger improvement because your posterior drive chain got stronger.

 

[mmeece]

I wonder if chaining together a movement like hip thrusts with kettle bell swings would "activate" the glutes then help them engage in a more complex movement? Just a thought. Also, I have noticed that when I use the TRX and hold the handles while doing pistols I can "sit" into them more and engage the posterior chain more. That might be a way for her to "unload" the quads somewhat since the weight load is shifted. Her body is just trying to perform in the most efficient way possible for her particular design. One of the most important things I have realized in my own training is that I have to figure out how to make some exercises LESS efficient to place the load where I really want it, not where it is most efficient. In other words, often I can do fewer reps of an exercise but feel much more work when the corrected movement pattern is used. That being said I wonder if she won't have to take several steps back before she can go forward.

 

[javasource]

I really like this thread... seems like not so long ago... people were running away from these kinds of conversations... and it's really great to see you all sharing ideas and your incredible in-depth understandings. Kudos to all of you.

This will be a tough post for me... as I've had the privilege to work with J's daughter a couple of times. Although he'd like to keep this as a TOPIC conversation... and not a mechanics conversation, having seen B in person makes my response about her... more specific than generic. So, I post only because I absolutely adore her effort, demeanor, and work ethic. Great young lady. Perhaps someone can take something from this... but this is to be pretty specific to B.

When I first met B, after having her do a bunch of basic tests, it was evident that she was in the highest injury risk pool... like the 80+ percentile. She has so much joint laxity that the quality of her movements are excessively poor. Whereas as the strength of her movements are excessively good.

Disconnecting from the plate has more to do with coordinated quality... coupled with strength and good timing. As mentioned in a previous post to J... the strength training needs to go out the window... the discipline needs to be movement quality IN a healthy range of motion.

If I had to be critical of J... I'd say one of his greatest strengths is also a weakness: that dude is a sponge. He takes everything in... and I think he's a little guilty of letting everything also come out. He could hold his own in many DEEP conversations, no doubt. The hardest thing... is to take that information and apply it to an athlete in a sequence that their physiology dictates. Although we can learn 100% of this stuff... we need to know how to apply 1% of it... and understand that no athlete will ever require 100 doses... just a dose at a time in the correct order. Most importantly, we need to also recognize that not every activity someone else performs is something we must try. Not just speaking out the side of my mouth here... I've had a few discussions with J regarding batting... and he's very much a "feel" guy. If he feels it... he will teach it... and he will teach a lot of it... in one sitting. J, you know I love you man... so take this for what it is... simply my opinion.

I think what you feel when you do this stuff is not what she feels, J - and it's obvious you recognize this. An example... my DD and I used to play Just Dance. Although I swear I'm a better dancer than her (I can feel those moves, man... I really can).. but damn-it, she always looks better when she does it. Point being.... the quality of movement I'm performing is no where near the quality of movement she is performing. Sure, I can feel it... it just looks goofy as hell.

Now, I can sit around saying... "it's my a$$ man, my a$$ is weak." And I can go out and by some Brazilian Butt-lift shoes... but that ain't changing the lack of quality dance moves this white boy is throwing out there. Just because she can twerk with the best of them... while I look like a dog droppin' a deuce... doesn't mean I can't become better. Trying to do it harder and faster isn't the key (believe me... I tried this on the dance floor once). My back and knees are junk... and I have zero flexibility... someone might recognize this before I hurt myself on the dance floor... and tell me to address the DEEP weaknesses... and focus on movement quality - not movement intensity.

God... what a horrendous example that is... hopefully Chloe never stumbles on this post!

Anyway, J has had injury issues... and although I don't know her entire injury history - every injury I can recall is outside of the core. That should be a monster red flag... telling you about the QUALITY of movement.

I know you've read the thread J... but go back and skip all the technical stuff... and re-read all the DM exercises. FP26's link had me saying, "hey, that exercise is in the DM sticky... that one too, etc". Look at the beginners exercises. The floor exercises. The plyo's, etc. Those exercises are the FOUNDATION to performance. You're expecting performance... and having her do performance... but she lacks the foundation.

Regardng the glutes.... this quote from Bret had me cringing:

Most experts don't know sh!t about the glutes

My GAWD... what a horrible marriage of words. Not feeling so bad about my dance analogy now...

Anyway, there's a lot of good stuff in the Bret post... but too much for one sitting. Those exercise progressions establish a baseline to enable quality movement... and the progression part is to be avoided until we marry the movement quality we expect to an exercise set. Takes me back to our first time together... and B's version of the Tuck Jump. Her ankles were jello... as were her knees. Is this a glute problem? Point being... I could tell you to simply do some clams, tennis ball bridges, etc... but WHAT LITMUS ARE YOU USING AS A REFERENCE TO PROGRESSION? Can she do a quality tuck jump now? I doubt it. Can she squat 440? Probably...

Even Rick chimed in to the effect that this girl is swimming all over the place. Her issue is MOVEMENT, J. Too much... and zero control of the quality.

When you ask her to full pitch... across a STILL TORSO... can she? I know this answer... she cannot. She closes like it's going out of style... because this girl can move... too much. She can't control her movements. Her glutes aren't causing her shoulders to spin.

So... I would tell you to attack her glaring weakness: proprioception and core stability. Her ankles and knees are all over the place... as are her shoulders. She's sprained her ankles... her wrist... and unless she dances like me... I doubt the reason is the glutes.

You need not hit the panic button. Put the red button away... and start eliminating movements. See a PT... not a strength trainer. Go for rehab exercises. Pitch across a STILL TORSO. Furthermore... whatever program you guys implement... make sure that you have a PRE & POST movement analysis test. Without this, you will not know what is working. I listed a bunch in the DM... like the star excursion, tucks, etc.

My largest criticism of people that train... is that they just train. They are not training movements. They are training muscles. Our goal is to perform softball pitching movements better.. so how is it that we are not evaluating the success of a program against a movement?

DO NOT FOCUS ON THE GLUTES. Focus on ankles, knees and the deeper stabilizing muscles. Focus on CONTROLLED LIMITED RANGE OF MOTION... and build strength in the stabilizers within these limited ranges.

Stick to one thing. Forget all the different flavors in the candy store. The glutes are not it, my friend... there's a whole chain that is broken before movement ever passes into that area... best fix the links before you fix the stinks... lol Oy vey.. bad joke.

Anyway, keep up the good battle - give her my admiration of her diligence.

With much respect, Best ~JS

 

[FrozenRope]

This thread is an interesting read. Had me doing all kind of weird stuff in my office like doing wall squats and poking my a$$ cheek to to see if it's tight. Anyway.... I'm just wondering if this entire post is built around timing of the arm circle and her disconnect from the plate? And it has been diagnosed as a problem of not getting off the rubber fast enough. How about a mechanism to delay the arm circle to create the overlap? I too have been to see Java a few times, and he is truly amazing (not trying to get an additional discount with flattery Java) in that he has such an in depth understanding of the human body and how it relates to the pitching motion. Share a quick story with you jryan...

Before our first visit, I sent all kinds of video for him to do an initial analysis..... and to be honest, I thought we were going to see him to focus on my daughter's lower half... I thought she was fine from her the perspective of her arm circle. That first meeting was humbling for me. One of the first things he asked dd to do is see if she can pull her thumb down to her wrist. She can. He asked her to straighten her arms out at her side... they hyper-extend quite a bit. So as I thought she was pretty well polished on the arm circle, Java felt differently... and he spent 2+ hours that day "reteaching" her how to throw a ball. We spent months remolding her arm circle. He continuously pointed out that she is the human version of Gumby, and she needs to pay a ridiculous amount of attention to details in her movements... every rep of every set of drills need to be executed perfectly. She practiced every damn day from December through March and for the first 3 months, she didn't throw a pitch other than 5-10 at the end of a workout now and then to see if anything was sticking. All we did was DRILLS DRILLS DRILLS.. and yeah.. dd didn't love it, but we both trusted what we heard. Posture Posture Posture.... Stability Stability Stability...

The point of this story is to tell you that after living this for a half a year or so... I will tell you that the attention to the details of the quality of the movements is HUGE. Go back to that principle. I loved the analogy Java used with my kid. Her existing movements were like Kiln fired clay... not able to be remolded.....we had to start with a new piece of raw clay and remold her movements..... and we did, and still are.

 

[jryan15]

You know that I'm not gonna roll off the topic that easily . BTW Brett Contreras should be sending me a royalty check for all the advertisement he's getting in this thread.

I think he's a little guilty of letting everything also come out.

Truer words have never been spoken

Most importantly, we need to also recognize that not every activity someone else performs is something we must try. Not just speaking out the side of my mouth here... I've had a few discussions with J regarding batting... and he's very much a "feel" guy. If he feels it... he will teach it... and he will teach a lot of it... in one sitting.

Feel is everything my friend. Our experience in learning the high level swing pattern has validated this statement. I believe it to be absolutely critical to search for "feels" in each athlete that we teach. The human body's ability to recreate movement patterns forces us to look beneath the surface to verify mechanics. Just because Kevin Spacey can do a mean Christopher Walken doesn't mean he is him... This analogy is exactly what's going on with DD's posterior drive train. Yes, she can run and it looks like someone running, but it is a farse. Under the hood her quads are pulling off the biggest con job imaginable. I don't want something that looks ok, I want it to BE ok. "Feel" is a critical element to accomplish this task.

the strength training needs to go out the window... the discipline needs to be movement quality IN a healthy range of motion.

Yes, the kid is getting strong due to weight lifting program at school. As much as she's improved, I find it odd that she can squat 180lbs, but can barely deadlift 95lbs from just below her knee to the top of the lift without recruiting her back (american deadlift style). That is not right... She has so much quad dominance that her glutes are never going to pull their share of the weight without some catchup work.

DO NOT FOCUS ON THE GLUTES. Focus on ankles, knees and the deeper stabilizing muscles. Focus on CONTROLLED LIMITED RANGE OF MOTION... and build strength in the stabilizers within these limited ranges.

Valgus knees and ankle stability do tie back to the posterior side... Now it could easily be possible that ankle instability led to the glute issue in the first place though. Also I agree that your workout programs in the drive mechanics thread could resolve the issues with the front and back ankle stabilizers.

https://www.t-nation.com/training/ankle-paradox
https://bretcontreras.com/knee-valgus-valgus-collapse-glute-medius-strengthening-band-hip-abduction-exercises-and-ankle-dorsiflexion-drills/

{RE: GLUTES}... there's a whole chain that is broken before movement ever passes into that area...

I've got to disagree with you on this one. The glutes should be kicking a$$ from the moment the drive foot (and stride foot for that matter) start to push. The glutes should be in full production throughout the entire GIF below and into plant.

I know the entire community is convinced that the reason she is so far out of position in this clip is because she is driving to get open... But for this athlete, I argue that is not correct and that the primary reason is due to posterior drive weakness resulting in recruitment of adjacent muscles groups to achieve her goal of driving off of the rubber with intensity.

@Javasource - I would really appreciate your thoughts below in regard to the GIF above. Regarding the issue that she has with being disconnected, can you help me understand how modifications to her arm motion will rectify this glaring issue with her drive mechanic (especially the last few frames). If I can see light at the end of this tunnel, I may reconsider things a bit.

PS - Have you looked at the Model Pitcher Database thread yet? I really feel like this is a very good tool to burrow beneath "style" and get to comparing raw mechanics of several pitchers side-by-side.

I used the tool to put some data together to backup my assertion of drive mechanic issues with DD.

Anyway, keep up the good battle - give her my admiration of her diligence.

With much respect, Best ~JS

Will do and thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

[corlay]

I know the entire community is convinced that the reason she is so far out of position in this clip is because she is driving to get open...

count me in on that group, also.

I see a pitcher who drives to "get sideways".
Many pitchers consciously work to "get open" in the early stages of learning to pitch. Maybe this is a vestige of that early work?
The way her back/bottom juts backward with rearward energy immediately after push-off,
and her extreme rear-ward posture are dead giveaways to me.
another clue: her detachment from the plate does not occur until her lead leg is fully-open.
So I would say she is using her "push" to help her "spin", if that makes any sense?

I might suggest that you really focus upon driving outward,
straight down the power-line and planting with an almost totally forward facing foot.
(A cue I like is to drive the lead knee AND elbow to the catcher)
Let the "opening" of her hips just happen naturally. (they will).
combined with: getting "out and down" quickly with the stride leg, so probably less loft in her stride?
This speaks to Java's advice of "controlled motions".

I'd also suggest to allow herself to "get more over" her plant leg into release. (stacked)
Glutes or no glutes, her body is in no position to be cracking any walnuts, no matter how strong she is or isn't back there.

My amateur opinions...

 

[jryan15]

count me in on that group, also.

I see a pitcher who drives to "get sideways".
Many pitchers consciously work to "get open" in the early stages of learning to pitch. Maybe this is a vestige of that early work?

Sigh... So so many workouts...constantly working on driving straight... Over and over again. It does work decent until she puts more power into it.

This is why "feel" is critical. Your eyes only see the surface. They will not let you feel what is going on.

Along these lines, it took me a very long time to learn how to make my rear leg IR by pulling reward with my back. I can do it now in full speed and people would bet a weeks pay that I'm physically IR'ing it. But no, from a deep coil and a hip pullback back and around, my rear leg will IR and turn my whole body along with it thus producing the "turn the hips" mechanic of hitting. No legs, no hips, no IR, just a hard and continuous pull backwards. For over a year, my eyes refused to show me how to do it. It was so frustrating, but DD and I prevailed. This deep delve into hitting mechanics taught me to look beyond what is seen on the surface.

Do kids drive off the rubber to get open? Sometimes. Do kids sometimes spin open? Sometimes. Is this kid doing either? Unequivocally, no. And yes, I would be the farm on it too.

So I would say she is using her "push" to help her "spin", if that makes any sense?

Kindasorta... Yes, she pushes and yes, she spins, but she is not pushing to spin, she is spinning because of how she pushed.


She is being pushed sideways by her drive. Watch the last few frames and try to feel her try and get the last bit of push off of the ground. She isn't trying to spin, she is trying to drive forward, but she is pushing with the wrong muscle groups. Not purposefully, no one has ever taught her to do this. It happens because doing it the right way is not properly supported by the posterior muscle group. There is a lack of power that she is supplementing by recruiting other muscles. She is missing the massive thrust that is gained by using the glutes.

Glutes or no glutes, her body is in no position to be cracking any walnuts, no matter how strong she is or isn't back there.

Cracking the walnut is not the only time the glutes are used in pitching. Yes, it is a great thought to get a kid to find stability when planting, but I don't think Yukiko is cracking walnuts when she uses her glutes to drive off of the rubber.


The other night I was so frustrated that I did some testing indoors by jumping. Several times I jumped like I did in college when working on my vertical to be able to dunk. I focused all on my quads and calves trying to push harder and harder. Then I jumped with a focus on using my glutes (which are weak and under utilized right now). I was jumping 1 to 2 inches higher.

Now that I am aware, I am making a conscious effort to use my glutes more often. With all seriousness, IT IS WEIRD. It is different, uncomfortable, and most definitely not how I normally do things.

If you've not experienced it, I guess it must not make sense. This thread is not for everyone, but someday someone will read it and understand exactly what I am talking about.

Not that I read it, but this whole thread reminds me of the book "Flatland".

 

[Crystal Brown]

Has she ever had any knee or leg injuries to her drive side? I am wondering…she pushes off with her knee pointing at an angle instead of straight at the catcher.

Cracking the walnut is not the only time the glutes are used in pitching. Yes, it is a great thought to get a kid to find stability when planting, but I don't think Yukiko is cracking walnuts when she uses her glutes to drive off of the rubber.


The other night I was so frustrated that I did some testing indoors by jumping. Several times I jumped like I did in college when working on my vertical to be able to dunk. I focused all on my quads and calves trying to push harder and harder. Then I jumped with a focus on using my glutes (which are weak and under utilized right now). I was jumping 1 to 2 inches higher.

Now that I am aware, I am making a conscious effort to use my glutes more often. With all seriousness, IT IS WEIRD. It is different, uncomfortable, and most definitely not how I normally do things.

If you've not experienced it, I guess it must not make sense. This thread is not for everyone, but someday someone will read it and understand exactly what I am talking about.

Not that I read it, but this whole thread reminds me of the book "Flatland".