Frustrated DD - Dumb Parents

[Me_and_my_big_mouth]

Lol, videos are posted as dumb parent got youtube figured out. We wonder about the showcase thing, too - in all honesty - but her coaches are all surprised at her tremendous progress and drive. She was a figure skater for years prior to softball, so her work ethic is there. For someone who just basically started playing last year, she's made big strides. She goes all or nothing, and she doesn't like to lose. I guess they see something in her - and she's having a great time learning the game. She would love to have been able to explain her pitching to Coach, but she's pretty introverted and this is the first week of practice together. She didn't want him to think she was being mouthy or arguing with him. And the very real possibility that she's doing it wrong also exists. "'Tis better to be thought a fool and remain silent, than to speak up and remove all doubt!" <-- that's my girl!

 

[smddad]

And, given she's a pitcher, in finding a "master," that master should be someone who understands and generally agrees with the pitching style you believe to be right.

P.S. smddad, that damned bug that is crawling around on my screen when I read your posts is driving me nuts. I've flicked that darned thing more than a few times. LOL! You'd think I'd eventually realize it isn't a bug on my screen.

This situation sucks because the HC is wanting something different. However, the parents are paying money for lessons. I know I would tell HC to not "fix" her.

As for bug, I stole him from another site. Typical coach. I'm about due for a change, but I kinds like its obnoxiousness.

 

[Me_and_my_big_mouth]

Can confirm: bug is distracting. Made me seriously crack up as I smacked at my screen. Darn newbies.

 

[josh]

I quit reading at this sentence ""makes her back hurt"." That is all I need to know, to make a judgement that she needs to ignore her team coach.

I am late to the party, but this is what I would agree with, if it makes her hurt, there is no way she should be doing it that way.

 

[Doug Romrell]

This situation sucks because the HC is wanting something different. However, the parents are paying money for lessons. I know I would tell HC to not "fix" her.

As for bug, I stole him from another site. Typical coach. I'm about due for a change, but I kinds like its obnoxiousness.

LOL! Well, at least in TB you can leave to find a different "master"--one of your choosing. You can't do that with HS ball, and they know it, and that's what leads to narcissistic tendency. But that's another subject altogether.

Damned bug on my screen!

 

[Doug Romrell]

I am late to the party, but this is what I would agree with, if it makes her hurt, there is no way she should be doing it that way.

Are we certain, though, what is actually causing the hurt? It could be any number of different things, even things unrelated to softball.

 

[javasource]

MAMBM,

Welcome to the board, btw!

I don't see the difference between her fastball and drop in the video you included. If you want more of a drop, raise the release... by getting her more stacked (vertical)... she has quite a bit of reverse or backward posture. She also has a bit of a bend in the waist towards third. The HE method *probably* hurt her back more... because of the focus of getting the shoulder around to keep the hand behind the ball. The lower vertebrae (L5) can't take bend AND rotation beyond a minimal amount of degrees.

The chicken winging was probably a result of that too... as a pre-maturely rotated torso will send the arm AWAY from the body... at great speeds. So... the arm flies out while bent to third... while the torso is rotating. That's a recipe for all types of back issues and posterior shoulder issues.

Stay open longer, adduct powerfully, and pitch across her body. This will allow her elbow to get SUCKED IN to her body... as opposed to a shoulder line that sends it away. HE mechanics will have her rotating her torso... and because it's a lesser proximal joint (the elbow)... and it's traveling away from the body... it will wing.

The goal was to make her faster - and H/E would do that in the short-term, but wouldn't do much for her progress or her health in the long term.

Not true. For $h!ts and giggles, give it a try. With the ball at 9... get your hand behind it... and as you throw it, continue to use HE... driving your shoulder behind it. Throw it.

Then... Use I/R... palm to sky, lead with the elbow, stay open, and throw that ball with a focus of keeping your hand inside it until it wants to turn over on its own. Throw it.

You can even try to long toss these... as velocity will equal distance. Don't do a full circle... start both with the ball at 9 o'clock.

You'll see it's not even close. HE is a myth in high-level pitching (it doesn't occur). However, it's very prevalent in low-level instructing (it occurs all over the world). We've had an ongoing bet on here over the years for someone to post a video of a high-level pitcher using HE mechanics in games. To my knowledge... no one has ever met the challenge... and it's not from lack of effort in searching... it's because it doesn't exist.

As far as OILF's comments...

I/R is the same thing as Medial Rotation... and it's been a part of athletics and the medical community for a LONG time. However, you continually post that it's unique to this board...

It's funny, 'Arm Whip' is a term that has been around forever. It was (and still is, in many circles) the most elusive concept in pitching. Few ever published a how-to... because they simply didn't know. BUT....

Sammons touched on it better than most - calling it INTERNAL SHOULDER ROTATION 20 YEARS AGO!!! ... and I know Kempf at least recognized it... although she failed to really describe it.

So... we (the softball community) are fortunate to have BoardMember take the time and fully describe it... and then show how you all can do it!

So, OILF... you can keep trying to discount DFP... calling us all crazy, under-qualified and those that perpetuate 'old-school' information. But the truth is... all we do is keep exposing phonies such as yourself. If the above wasn't a case and point... perhaps this is:

First of all, it is the shove change that gets an arc, not the flip change

This is ridiculous on so many levels it's absurd. Every pitch has an arc. And one that is flipped with an action of the wrist UPWARD... is going to have a tendency to arc a heck of a lot more than a pitch that is pushed on one trajectory path towards a target 40-43 feet away... especially when both are usually pitched in the 40-45mph range. It's a crazy thing... called gravity.

You were right on one thing:

I am not a pitching coach!

 

[sluggers]

New coach (who has many, MANY years experience) and whom we just love, tells her that he wants her finishing her fastball with her elbow pointing toward the catcher, and her hand over her shoulder.

He's wrong. I don't care how much you love him.

He sends me video that shows that her "drop" ball and her "fast" ball look virtually the same - there seems to be no difference. He is correct. I can see no difference.

Yes, but that is because her hand is going up to much after she releases the drop. The hand should never get above waist height for a drop ball.

As to OILF...she doesn't post videos or pictures. She just says, "You are wrong." She is basically a post-Columbus flat earther.

 

[Me_and_my_big_mouth]

Are we certain, though, what is actually causing the hurt? It could be any number of different things, even things unrelated to softball.

Quite true - she also takes speed and agility, and has been practicing with our program's 16u girls for the last 2 weeks - so extra work and effort is going on. Certainly those are factors in the back pain - but she didn't bring it up or complain until pitching that same evening when she was trying the new h/e style - if you watch the first video, you can see her start holding her back after she throws. That could be purely coincidental. Her back (lower) is still achy, but I also think now that it's partially the result of planks and "crab crawling" that they had the girls doing during practice. It's muscle soreness - and it seems to be improving. No stabbing pain, goes away with Epsom salt bath and ibuprofen, and better after sleeping - so that says muscle soreness from exercise and strengthening, not strain or overuse to me (but I'm no doctor!). We'll keep an eye on it. She's playing this weekend - so hopefully she's OK. It worries me, as a parent.

Thanks again, everyone. I can't believe the wealth of information you all have - and your commitment to the sport. It's certainly more complicated than it first appears! I love it, though - sure beats hanging out at the ice rink three times a week at 5am! We've been really lucky with our experiences so far - encouraging coaches and great parents. I've read about and heard horror stories - but I'm hoping we can steer clear of all that baloney. We love the program that she's in now - and we're just hoping that she has a blast and gets more confident. Javasport, I really appreciate the detailed description you gave - I'm finding myself going back to the videos and watching - then saying "Ooooooooohhhhh, now I get it".

You've all really helped me feel better about standing up for our Pitching Coach and her methods. She's a Junior in college and not a traditional "coach" - just a talented young lady who wanted to help - but she pulls her dad and her own pitching coach in to watch videos of dd and to help.

Thanks!

 

[Jojo]

MAMBM.

Never use your team coach as your pitching coach. You can listen to what he has to say, discuss it with your PC, and then educate yourself and go on from there. You just cannot pitch one way with the PC and one way with the Team coach. It won't work.

As far as her chicken winging problem;
As she comes into release she stays inside the ball at release this will cause her to throw inside. When she attempts to correct the inside pitch, she cuts under the ball and pulls the fingers into her body--like a curve spin which causes the chicken wing. She doesn't need to correct the chicken wing, she needs to correct the spin.
I think her control issue is coming from her trying to correct the chicken wing thinking about her follow through and not thinking about her spin.

I see you said she is working with a spinner now and this is great.
Keep up the spinner work, I also have my students throw dirt pitches at a bucket, getting the wrist and fingers lined up.
Make sure she's throwing a striped ball so she gets feedback on what comes out of her hand.

If her drop and fastball look the same, she isn't getting enough spin on the drop. If she's pulling up the drop with the over the shoulder follow through she's probably releasing it late out front and not getting enough spin. Over thinking the follow through and not the spin.

There are other things I'd like to address, but I don't want to contradict myself and tell you to work on something after I just told you to listen to your PC

Your DD does look good and shows tons of potential, she's just had a set back due to conflicting instruction and a change in her focus.
Get her focus back on track, start with her release/spin and she'll be way on her way to a successful season.