Force out or not?

[Sweet Lou]

And to followup to add. Say there is 1st and 3rd one (1) out at the time of the fly ball. OF catches the ball, runner on 3rd (R3) tags but runner on first (R1) was going on the pitch and is way off base.

OF throws to 1B in plenty of time to beat the R1 back to the bag for the 3rd out of the inning.

If R3 crosses the plate before the out is recored on R1, then the run counts because as stated while there is not a required tag play on R1, it is not a "force out" but if R1 is out before R3 crosses the plate then run does not count because R3 did not touch home prior to the 3rd out.

 

[Momo'sDad]

And to followup to add. Say there is 1st and 3rd one (1) out at the time of the fly ball. OF catches the ball, runner on 3rd (R3) tags but runner on first (R1) was going on the pitch and is way off base.

OF throws to 1B in plenty of time to beat the R1 back to the bag for the 3rd out of the inning.

If R3 crosses the plate before the out is recored on R1, then the run counts because as stated while there is not a required tag play on R1, it is not a "force out" but if R1 is out before R3 crosses the plate then run does not count because R3 did not touch home prior to the 3rd out.

Correct ruling, except that I'd label your R3 as 'R1' instead and would label your R1 as 'R2'.

 

[Umpireernie]

A live ball appeal by tagging the base where the infraction occurred looks like a force out but it is not in and of itself a force out by rule. This gets to be very important when deciding if runs scored during a play when the third out is recorded.

A live ball appeal for a missed base may ALSO be a force out if the base that was missed is one that the runner could have been forced out at. Example: 2 outs, R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B. Base hit thru the infield and rolls to the fence. R1 scores easily. R2 misses 2B and ends up at 3B. Defense throws to 2B and tags the bag making a live ball appeal for the missed base.

Since the batter became a batter runner and was not put out R1 was forced off of 1B so in order for the run to score on a play where the third out was made she had to reach 2B safely. She never did; she missed 2B and was called out on appeal. R1 does not score.

Same play but runners starting on 3B and 2B. R2 from 2B missed 3B while after R1 has already scored. R2 is out on live ball appeal trying to get back to 3B that she missed. Since she was not forced off 2B this is a time play.. the run by R1 (from 3B) counts.

 

[Momo'sDad]

This is not a "force out". This is a live ball appeal of a runner who has left a base before the ball was caught and has not yet tagged up.

BTW, is the proper rule reference 8-8 (L) in ASA?

 

[Comp]

8-7-F is what covers the live ball appeal of the runner leaving before the ball was touched. 8-8-L covers the runner not being out if they are still in contact with the base at the time the ball is touched.

 

[Momo'sDad]

8-7-F is what covers the live ball appeal of the runner leaving before the ball was touched. 8-8-L covers the runner not being out if they are still in contact with the base at the time the ball is touched.

Thanks so much.

Crazy but true story, as this came up in a game I was coaching last night. Surprisingly, several very experienced ASA coaches who were present and our league's UIC all had it wrong. Having just been refreshed on the rule because of this thread, I knew I was 100% correct. The 2nd out of the inning was on the caught fly ball and the 3rd out of the inning came on that play when the ball was thrown to 1st before the runner could get back in time.

In our case, the umpire came up the 1B line about 8-10' to make the out call and couldn't judge whether the runner coming from 3B had crossed before the 3rd out was recorded. I knew she had scored safely, but it was close.

What do you do when the umpire is out of position like that? Does the umpire need to see the runner cross home for it to count?

 

[MTR]

Thanks so much.

Crazy but true story, as this came up in a game I was coaching last night. Surprisingly, several very experienced ASA coaches who were present and our league's UIC all had it wrong. Having just been refreshed on the rule because of this thread, I knew I was 100% correct. The 2nd out of the inning was on the caught fly ball and the 3rd out of the inning came on that play when the ball was thrown to 1st before the runner could get back in time.

In our case, the umpire came up the 1B line about 8-10' to make the out call and couldn't judge whether the runner coming from 3B had crossed before the 3rd out was recorded. I knew she had scored safely, but it was close.

What do you do when the umpire is out of position like that? Does the umpire need to see the runner cross home for it to count?

How many umpires on the game? If 2, where was the BU?

 

[Cannonball]

And to followup to add. Say there is 1st and 3rd one (1) out at the time of the fly ball. OF catches the ball, runner on 3rd (R3) tags but runner on first (R1) was going on the pitch and is way off base.

OF throws to 1B in plenty of time to beat the R1 back to the bag for the 3rd out of the inning.

If R3 crosses the plate before the out is recored on R1, then the run counts because as stated while there is not a required tag play on R1, it is not a "force out" but if R1 is out before R3 crosses the plate then run does not count because R3 did not touch home prior to the 3rd out.

I am constantly amazed how often this is ruled wrongly. In fact, I came the closest I ever came to being ejected in a baseball game over this rule. No matter how much I tried to reason with the plate umpire, he insisted that this was a force out. I give this ump a lot of credit because when we had him again, he admitted that he had it wrong. He didn't have to do that. I also owed him an apology because I think I should have been ejected.

 

[Momo'sDad]

How many umpires on the game? If 2, where was the BU?

Just 1 ump.

I could see the play at 1B shaping up to be bang-bang, so I figured she just reacted in an effort to get a closer look. It's possible that that call was missed, but even though it was a playoff game, it was an instance where my team actually deserved to be called out and it was my fault for putting the coach at 1B in a position to affect the game in the 1st place.

From LF, it took 3 throws - 7-6-1-3 - to get the ball over to 1B. I don't have video to prove it, but I remain convinced the runner did cross before the 3rd out was recorded.

That run would've changed the game quite a bit, but ultimately, the loss was totally on me because of 2 critical management errors made prior to that play.

 

[MTR]

Just 1 ump.

That's tough option for umpire. Obviously, some priority has to be given to the plate as opposed to 1B simply due to the urgency of a run scored as opposed to a runner safe three bases prior to counting on the scoreboard.

If the umpire thought it was important enough to move out of the 3B holding zone, he should have been aware to make the call and immediately turn around to check the plate giving any benefit of doubt to the runner. It's tough to make that turn as doing so prematurely means you may miss a dropped or bobbled ball which could affect the call. But the longer you stay with the play at 1B, the less confident the call on the run will be.

Personally, I'll stay closer to the plate leaning toward the 3B side of the infield and give up distance for angle and range of view.