Finally, the end of the "does the riseball really rise"...

[Sweet Lou]

In fact, your rejection of science does not play here.

Yikes that's the first time I've ever been accused of rejecting science!

I do agree with the rest of you post.

I thought you and CoachFP & starsnuffer were arguing with the conclusions of the pitchxf data. If I've missunderstood that, my apologies.

 

[CoachFP]

Steve, some of these people are clinging to the "revolutionary" view that the riseball does not "drop" as fast as other pitches and are trying to sound as if they tutored Isaac Newton. A rising fastball in baseball does not drop as fast as a straight fastball, but a riseball in softball does not drop. End of story.

 

[Sweet Lou]

Steve, some of these people are clinging to the "revolutionary" view that the riseball does not "drop" as fast as other pitches and are trying to sound as if they tutored Isaac Newton. A rising fastball in baseball does not drop as fast as a straight fastball, but a riseball in softball does not drop. End of story.

I would love to see a slow motion frame by frame view of a good rise ball from the side with the intial tragectory angle shown and plotted on the video from release to catcher's glove. I think that would be a very usefull tool to this discussion.

It would also be a cool episopde for the "science of sports" or whatever that segment is called.

 

[Steve Huff]

No Sweet Lou, we are just saying that we don't reject it! But words mean something. CoachFP and I are not rejecting science. Drop means "coming down" due to gravity. That means a rise ball would have a hump in its trajectory, not a "flattening" effect. That is all we are saying. We accept the pitchxf data completely, just its interpretation is different. A rise-ball especially is a study in real science.

 

[Sweet Lou]

No Sweet Lou, we are just saying that we don't reject it! But words mean something. CoachFP and I are not rejecting science. Drop means "coming down" due to gravity. That means a rise ball would have a hump in its trajectory, not a "flattening" effect. That is all we are saying. We accept the pitchxf data completely, just its interpretation is different. A rise-ball especially is a study in real science.

Totally agree. Again I'd love to see a controlled study on film in super slo-mo with the camera mounted on the 3rd base line (or 1st base line for lefties) at a height consistant with the pitchers release point and plot the actual trajectory. I really think that would be fun to see.

 

[FPMark]

"I think you are missing a critical componant of the pitch arc. The ball starts dropping as soon as it leaves the hand."

FPMark, I can't buy this. "Dropping means that it would be below the horizontal plane after release. That doesn't happen. Gravity starts to take effect immediately after it leaves the hand. But the ball doesn't start "dropping" until it reaches the peak of its trajectory. That might be 30 or 50 feet past home plate. The effect is just to take away the potential trajectory added by the upward release and "rise" spin! Semantics perhaps, but it is science. The individual pitcher determines the amount of effect gravity has on her pitch.

This is the point I think is most often misunderstood. Gravity has the same effect on an object, regardless of speed. Think of it this way... How far does a bullet have to travel before it begins to drop? Everything, regardless of weight and speed, begins to drop as soon as it begins to travel airborn. If you have ever sighted in a gun, you have seen this. When sighting in a gun, you have to sight it in at a particular distance. At a shorter distance the bullit will hit the target higher, and at a longer distance the bullit will hit the target lower. This is because even a bullit does not have a flat trajectory, it follows an arc. The only thing speed changes is the distance traveled per inch of drop.

Spin on a softball is a little different because of aerodynamic forces, namely the magnus effect. Overspin will increase the arc of the ball, and backspin will decrease the arc of the ball. But no amount of spin will overcome the force of gravity, so every ball thrown has an arc, none are flat or reverse arc (rise). The reason you throw a ball with an upward trajectoy is to allow the ball to travel a further distance. It does not take the arc out of the path of the ball.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

This is the point I think is most often misunderstood. Gravity has the same effect on an object, regardless of speed. Think of it this way... How far does a bullet have to travel before it begins to drop? Everything, regardless of weight and speed, begins to drop as soon as it begins to travel airborn. If you have ever sighted in a gun, you have seen this. When sighting in a gun, you have to sight it in at a particular distance. At a shorter distance the bullit will hit the target higher, and at a longer distance the bullit will hit the target lower. This is because even a bullit does not have a flat trajectory, it follows an arc. The only thing speed changes is the distance traveled per inch of drop.

Spin on a softball is a little different because of aerodynamic forces, namely the magnus effect. Overspin will increase the arc of the ball, and backspin will decrease the arc of the ball. But no amount of spin will overcome the force of gravity, so every ball thrown has an arc, none are flat or reverse arc (rise). The reason you throw a ball with an upward trajectoy is to allow the ball to travel a further distance. It does not take the arc out of the path of the ball.

Excellent point!

 

[starsnuffer]

This is the point I think is most often misunderstood. Gravity has the same effect on an object, regardless of speed. Think of it this way... How far does a bullet have to travel before it begins to drop? Everything, regardless of weight and speed, begins to drop as soon as it begins to travel airborn. If you have ever sighted in a gun, you have seen this. When sighting in a gun, you have to sight it in at a particular distance. At a shorter distance the bullit will hit the target higher, and at a longer distance the bullit will hit the target lower. This is because even a bullit does not have a flat trajectory, it follows an arc. The only thing speed changes is the distance traveled per inch of drop.

Spin on a softball is a little different because of aerodynamic forces, namely the magnus effect. Overspin will increase the arc of the ball, and backspin will decrease the arc of the ball. But no amount of spin will overcome the force of gravity, so every ball thrown has an arc, none are flat or reverse arc (rise). The reason you throw a ball with an upward trajectoy is to allow the ball to travel a further distance. It does not take the arc out of the path of the ball.

Great points.

Even guns lob their bullets though. If you sight in at 100 yards, you may very well hit higher at 50 yards and lower at 25 yards then your target at 100 yards. A lot of people think that barrels are level to the ground, they are not.

-W

 

[Greenmonsters]

Can't this be simplified to state that the higher velocity and the greater the spin rate (assume perfect 6-12 rotation), the better the rise ball (i.e., less drop)?

At least this isn't about whether it really rises!

 

[CoachFP]

Mark, having taught Calculus at the college level, I do submit that there is an arc involved. However, the tangent to any point on the arc prior to reaching home plate will still have a net positive value, meaning the ball is still going up.