Extension - Hips before Hands

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Jun 17, 2009
15,019
0
Portland, OR
That's what I said.

Please don't quote me back to me.

CO, you earlier wrote “Extension is due to a bunch of things”.

The truth is that it isn’t complicated ... and it need not be a mystery. You can attempt to explain these "bunch of things" ... that is if your true intent is to be helpful.

Simply think in terms of what causes ‘extension’.

Sure … one can see ‘extension’ in a swing and think to ‘directly’ teach it. They can attempt to teach a ‘late, active, last-ditch pushing effort’. That would be a mistake IMO … and it certainly isn’t the road that many here would advocate.

Extension could simply be thought of as having a relatively heavy object, such as a bat, traveling at a relatively high speed, that is fueled by the body’s core engine … such as the body’s rotation … in which a change in that engine’s angular force results in the momentum of the heavy object ‘disconnecting’ from it’s power source.

Failure to extend may simply be due to pitch location, … or it may be the result of an upstream issue that caused the barrel’s momentum to be less than it could be … and since momentum is simply ‘mass’ x ‘velocity’ … that simply means that the bat may be too light, or that the barrel’s velocity is less than ideal.

Testing out various bat weights is simple enough.

Given a fixed barrel mass, the issue is simply that of obtaining sufficient barrel velocity. Everything else being equal, greater barrel speeds will result in greater ‘resulting’ extension. Lack of sufficient barrel speed, IMO, is an upstream issue … well prior to ‘contact’ or ‘extension’. IMO, even pre-set conditions, which influence the resulting motion, will factor into barrel speed. Certain pre-set conditions not only influence whip mechanics, but can also favor thrusting like action, or actions which fuel the body’s main source of force generation … rotation … which influences resulting barrel speed. The “establishment” of “connection”, … not just being connected, which influences barrel speed, but also the “actions of connection”, along with the accompanying “early bat speed”, also factor into barrel speed. Swinging with a clean kinetic sequence factors into barrel speed. If you read my earlier post quoting Bobby Jones … then you will note that he touches on the concept of “launch & spend”, which also influences barrel speed.

Bottom line … extension should not be ‘directly’ taught … instead earlier actions upstream should be promoted, which in turn will influence the ‘result’ of the swing … and ‘extension’ is simply a ‘result’ of the swing.

Note that when Tewks first arrived here at DFP that he questioned those teaching extension. IMO, he never received a good answer. The main theme seemed to be that girls frequently didn’t extend, and so drills were being used to promote extension. The drill that was being advocated to promote extension (e.g., the Peavy/Lau type drill with the top hand reversed) works properly, IMO, when it is used to promote upstream mechanics … at least that is how I’ve used that drill. The Peavy/Lau drill in particular, can be ‘helpful’ or ‘harmful’ … depending on what is promoted to achieve the extension being sought. IMO those that use the drill to promote a late push are using the drill to the detriment of the hitter. Those that use the drill to promote “well timed” upstream actions, inclusive of upper/lower body timing issues, will enhance barrel speed and ‘extension’ as a ‘result’.
 
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R

RayR

Guest
Do the "elbows exchange the elbows" or does something else cause this? Do you turn the triangle or does the triangle get turned? The phrase "hips and hands" is used so often, but so rarely taught effectively. What do the hips and hands do? How does the body prepare for the hips and hands to be used?

What is upstream and what is downstream?


Any idea if the pitch is an off-speed mistake up? Or a rise?

Please provide some thoughts and answers. These boards have had enough "riddle me this" type of pollution. I am all ears to hear about what works for you.

And to show what a nice guy I am I will go first.

Upstream - ground up to lag
Downstream - lag to contact

Learning the proper elbow path is upstream IMO because you cannot effectively chart the elbow path after lag.
 
Feb 16, 2010
453
0
Nashua, NH
Please provide some thoughts and answers. These boards have had enough "riddle me this" type of pollution. I am all ears to hear about what works for you.

And to show what a nice guy I am I will go first.

Upstream - ground up to lag
Downstream - lag to contact

Learning the proper elbow path is upstream IMO because you cannot effectively chart the elbow path after lag.

I like using the Socratic Method... sorry if you found it offensive. I do the same with my players to promote independent, critical thinking. I post with the lurkers in mind.

I don't think the elbows move the elbows. I think the body is setup in the "load" to allow the hands/forearms to work and to allow the hamstrings/glutes to work. I think lag is very far downstream... How you prepare to launch matters and how you launch matters. The "downstream" should be over quicker than you can blink... literally.
 
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Jun 17, 2009
15,019
0
Portland, OR
I like using the Socratic Method... sorry if you found it offensive. I do the same with my players to promote independent, critical thinking. I post with the lurkers in mind.

I don't think the elbows move the elbows. I think the body is setup in the "load" to allow the hands/forearms to work and to allow the hamstrings/glutes to work. I think lag is very far downstream... How you prepare to launch matters and how you launch matters. The "downstream" should be over quicker than you can blink... literally.

Bold portion above .... is key IMO.
 
Oct 12, 2009
1,460
0
Now you are getting it.

Extension should simply be thought of as a useful aid for the instructor. The actions that influence extension are upstream and should be the target of the instructors focus ... extension is merely the 'result'.

Further, those that have a hitter focus on 'extension' often end up having a hitter make a last ditch pushing effort ... not what we want.

I've said this for years.
 
Oct 25, 2009
3,335
48
I totally agree that "extension" is the "result." I agree that extension is a non-teach. But the "path" of "extension" seems to be what must be taught. Now, how do you teach a "circular" path or an "elliptical" path?

The "path", I believe, is what some incorrectly term "extension."
 
R

RayR

Guest
SBP ... the 'path' is, IMO, largely a result of the preset conditions and the launch.

Would you agree that preset conditions include attaining a "cusp?"

Similar to throwing that includes a properly timed hand break, hitting can viewed the same. Hand break in hitting can viewed as when the hands load in the sequence. Proper sequencing does not require muscle - it stores energy to be released.

Sat through a team workout last night (just a spectator) and was able to watch throwing practice. What was missing IMO was a properly timed hand break. The ball was up and out way too early and the throws were all arms. The players were preset with ball in the "L" position. There wasn't stored energy from this position.
 

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