drag and hand activation

[RayR]

100% agree. You just beat me to it, was going to post the same observation. This is a top down swing, the shoulders are initiating hip rotation and the back heal is the last to go. How does she throw?

We always start to teach the swing by going over how to throw. Not to emphasize arm action, that comes later, but to teach how to use the lower body.

Can't throw - we work on that as well - danced for 5 years - kicks insteads of strides or steps...

Believe me we work the death out of lower body action. Stiff knees or something - lol.

Again - I was using her as an example of not dropping the barrel and still dragging the bat.

 

[redzuk]

She's rotated her rear hip ... has separation between her shoulders and hips ... ... ... ***BUT*** the barrel hasn't gone anywhere yet ... in a rotational sense that is. She basically hasn't used her hands yet ... because if she did, we wouldn't see the barrel path that she has. It's like MTS described earlier ... the hands have been left behind.

Yep. I can see this. It would be interesting to see what you could do with this swing by changing how the hands work.

In this particular case, the batter seems to have dialed in everything so she can get the hands in that position. The open stance, the way she gets the core engaged, the sequence, and timing. Rather impressive if you think about it, and it actually worked at 14u level.

 

[RayR]

I guess you have to "see" what I "see."

Aside from all esle -what if she didn't lose the front arm so early? How would the swing look then?

I see a finish more out in front (extension) and less wrap around her body...

I give her the queue of swinging a hammer - keeping the bat cocked (that got us to here - she used to dump the barrel even in tee swings). She just hasn't figured out how keep her front arm bent longer.

 

[redzuk]

I provided the clip for the sake of discussion and a good example of bat drag.
Aside from bat drag, she's a spinner and that needs attention.

BD

I'm curious what you would do to correct for being a spinner? I agree with FFS and MTS, poor mechanics causes the bat drag. The question is what to fix.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I'm curious what you would do to correct for being a spinner? I agree with FFS and MTS, poor mechanics causes the bat drag. The question is what to fix.

The "spinner" issue can be corrected in the same lesson when you teach lower body mechanics.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I think this recent swing introduces another important point with respect to “bat drag” and the “RVP Connection Point” position.

Not that anyone should ignore the importance of the ‘checkpoint’ at the “RVP Connection Point” position … because it certainly can reveal the presence of a swing issue.

Generally, but not always, having the elbow lead the hands at the “RVP Connection Point” position is a sign of “bat drag”.

However … you should IMO go one step further to seek confirmation that the swing issue that was “noted” due to the observation of the hands & rear elbow, at the “RVP Connection Point” position, is indeed “bat drag”. That is … knowing what “bat drag” truly is, we turn our attention to the “bat barrel” and we observe if the actual “bat barrel” is being “dragged”.

In this particular case we see the warning sign at the “RVP Connection Point” … however when we seek confirmation for “bat drag” we see that the barrel itself is being rotated. Hence, the issue is not “bat drag” in this particular case.

It works both ways. The “RVP Connection Point” is an important position that a swing passes through. It is a very important position. People are correct to want to get this correct. However, it doesn’t always mean that “bat drag” is the issue of an imperfection of passing through this position correctly … and the case here represents one of those cases IMO where the issue is not “bat drag”.

Hence the reason it is important to trace the issue back to the source and seek confirmation.

IMO … the issue here is not one of “bat drag”, but one of an “improper swing sequence”.

Observation of the “RVP Connection Point” position did identify an issue … but that issue was not “bat drag” … but “swing sequence”.

Just sharing how I look at things. I respect that others may view it differently.

My point is … truly understand what “bat drag” is … because when you do you can cure the issue at the source, as well as not work on curing it when it isn’t truly the issue.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Bold portion .... absolute music to my ears. I began my winter clinics last weekend ... and a good part of the hitting sessions were on the approach you just stated. Like you said, not to emphasize arm action ... but for me at least ... to learn the Coil-Stretch sequence and capture the "feel" with the ground. We only have two contacts ... the feet with the ground and the hands with the bat ... and we need to make the best use of each. I dedicate my first sessions to the contact between the feet & ground.

Looking at the OP bat drag pix in post #62, my question is, if the swing is built from the ground up, isn't it a waste of time by working first on anything other than balance? I see questionable balance pre-load and then very poor balance at/after stride. How can you expect a good swing if the body's first priority is to keep from falling over?

GM

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I guess you have to "see" what I "see."

Aside from all esle -what if she didn't lose the front arm so early? How would the swing look then?

I see a finish more out in front (extension) and less wrap around her body...

I give her the queue of swinging a hammer - keeping the bat cocked (that got us to here - she used to dump the barrel even in tee swings). She just hasn't figured out how keep her front arm bent longer.

MTS, I’d like to offer an alternative viewpoint to what you refer to as “losing the front arm early”.

Notice that the lead upper arm (humerus) pretty much hugs her upper body up to contact. Hence, did she really “lose the front arm early”? Not from my way of looking at things. IMO she remained connected to her upper torso.

But she did lose something early … so let’s see if we can agree on what it is she "lost early".

Since the front upper arm hugs the upper body from 'swing initiation' to 'contact', we can say that portion of the swing is “connected” ….. BUT, your observation is still correct. That is, something is “lost early”.

The upper torso and lead arm are reasonably well connected in this swing …. BUT the upper torso is NOT well connected. So while the lead are is connected to the upper torso, they as a unit … the lead arm AND upper torso … are poorly connected in this swing … so what is "lost early" is the upper torso ... and the entire reason for that, IMO, is that she has the swing sequence virtually backwards.

Just sharing a viewpoint.

 

[RayR]

Yes, I agree the sequence is off.

But, this is still bat drag in my dictionary albeit casued by a cast. Once she casts how does she get the barrel to contact? She has lost leverage with her hands so she is left with cranking the shoulders. And since the sequence is off - she winds arounds like a pretzel in her follow though.

And since the sequence is off - she doesn't set up the hands with the legs/hips she has no other choice (after she casts) to drag the barrel to contact with shoulder rotation.

Again - the point of the this clip was to show bat drag without dumping the barrel early.

I think this recent swing introduces another important point with respect to “bat drag” and the “RVP Connection Point” position.

Not that anyone should ignore the importance of the ‘checkpoint’ at the “RVP Connection Point” position … because it certainly can reveal the presence of a swing issue.

Generally, but not always, having the elbow lead the hands at the “RVP Connection Point” position is a sign of “bat drag”.

However … you should IMO go one step further to seek confirmation that the swing issue that was “noted” due to the observation of the hands & rear elbow, at the “RVP Connection Point” position, is indeed “bat drag”. That is … knowing what “bat drag” truly is, we turn our attention to the “bat barrel” and we observe if the actual “bat barrel” is being “dragged”.

In this particular case we see the warning sign at the “RVP Connection Point” … however when we seek confirmation for “bat drag” we see that the barrel itself is being rotated. Hence, the issue is not “bat drag” in this particular case.

It works both ways. The “RVP Connection Point” is an important position that a swing passes through. It is a very important position. People are correct to want to get this correct. However, it doesn’t always mean that “bat drag” is the issue of an imperfection of passing through this position correctly … and the case here represents one of those cases IMO where the issue is not “bat drag”.

Hence the reason it is important to trace the issue back to the source and seek confirmation.

IMO … the issue here is not one of “bat drag”, but one of an “improper swing sequence”.

Observation of the “RVP Connection Point” position did identify an issue … but that issue was not “bat drag” … but “swing sequence”.

Just sharing how I look at things. I respect that others may view it differently.

My point is … truly understand what “bat drag” is … because when you do you can cure the issue at the source, as well as not work on curing it when it isn’t truly the issue.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Looking at the OP bat drag pix in post #62, my question is, if the swing is built from the ground up, isn't it a waste of time by working first on anything other than balance? I see questionable balance pre-load and then very poor balance at/after stride. How can you expect a good swing if the body's first priority is to keep from falling over?

GM

GM ... very good point. In my clinics, I start with by teaching the establishment of 'dynamic' balance in the stance. Further, I use an additional pre-set setup to promote dynamic balance at the initiation of coil.

You are spot on! Teach dynamic balance first. The brain will place a high priority on seeking dynamic balance first ... and if we find out that we are dynamically unbalanced as we start our swing, then we will place a higher priority on seeking dynamic balance than on the planned activity of swinging the bat.

Good point!