drag and hand activation

[theaddition]

p.s.

IMO the hands don’t move via mental telepathy … but instead via a sequential series of “under the hood” muscle actions that “establish” a “connected swing” … which, IMO, is why MarkH often spoke of “connection” as an “action”, and not as a “position” or “body orientation”.

You need to be careful with trying to have a “connected swing” by simply “wishing it” … all too often you end up with a pre-set fused upper body … which in a sense is a whip killer. Instead, the role of the upper body is to remain ‘relaxed’, and to allow ‘connection’ to be established at “swing initiation”.

This is not directed at you specifically, but all of us involved.
I said this for along time and it continues, and continues and continues . . . .
And, It's why I am asking for clarification from anyone who wants to chime in.
Mark H (you as well): CONNECTION is a PROCESS (connecting)
Candrea: CONNECTION is a POSITION (connected)

Since I am not chatting with Candrea, but rather you, we can't effectively communicate because I am flying by Candrea's definition of connection.
This is just one example of why understanding is usually lacking on web discussions.

Mike Candrea:
connection - rear elbow and rear hand lining up with the stripe of the pants.

Another example:
Slotted rear elbow is not synonymous with slotting rear elbow.
Is a SLOTTED rear elbow the same as Candrea's definition of CONNECTION?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

You could have just said this and I think I see what your saying.

If you look at the two frames of Tulowitzky I posted, is that what you call turning the bat. If so, it wouldnt matter if he turned the bat perfectly but failed to move the lower body, or it would result in "bat drag".

Get under the hood as you say and turn the bat then fire the hips, its impossible to not drag the bat.

And likewise is it possible to drag the bat if the core is truly driving the swing. That contradicts what i've said before, you can have the lower half work right, drag the bat and ruin the swing. With severe drag the swings can look really powerful at full speed, frame by frame they might all look like the kid on the first page. Lower half did engage, but in the wrong sequence.

Failed to move the lower body???

I certainly hope no one here is advocating that. To the contrary ..... I think most people understand the importance of following a proper kinetic sequence.

I'd like to believe that we all understand the importance of the "lower body running start" ... on every pitch ... whether you swing or not ... whether you 'use' your 'hands' or not.

Here is section of a post from BoardMember. I like it ... I've shared it with my hitters ... as I believe it helps get the point across.

----

Boardmember:

The lower body ALWAYS GOES..........Whether the hands go or not.........This is achieved by UNLOADING from the ground up..........

The train is leaving the station........whether the hands jump on or not...............The HANDS swing the bat........But they should ALWAYS be swinging FROM THE TOP OF A MOVING TRAIN.........

This lower body is doing the exact same thing EVERY TIME.........On one side of this clip the hands jumped on early......On the other side, they stayed on the platform waiting for the next train........

You cannot do this if your hands are inchage of THE LOWER BODY........Mentally OR physically..........

The lower body ALWAYS goes..........Or at least STARTS going........From the ground up...........

If the train ALWAYS LEAVES.......Then the hands can jump on and SWING THE BAT early or LATE.........And still harness the power of the lower body train.........

Not sure how/why you'd argue this either........But maybe you see it differently then me.........

The hands are quick.......The hips are slow........The hands can catch a ride (a whip) on the "hip train" anytime they want.........

 

[softballphreak]

You could have just said this and I think I see what your saying.

If you look at the two frames of Tulowitzky I posted, is that what you call turning the bat. If so, it wouldnt matter if he turned the bat perfectly but failed to move the lower body, or it would result in "bat drag".

Get under the hood as you say and turn the bat then fire the hips, its impossible to not drag the bat.

And likewise is it possible to drag the bat if the core is truly driving the swing. That contradicts what i've said before, you can have the lower half work right, drag the bat and ruin the swing. With severe drag the swings can look really powerful at full speed, frame by frame they might all look like the kid on the first page. Lower half did engage, but in the wrong sequence.

You are correct; you can have the lower half work right but still have bat drag. The lower half does not eliminate bat drag but it does help. Without the hips leading there is a feeling for having to swing around the front of the body. This is an issue that females are said to have an issue with. I don't quite agree with that, though, as the front should be cleared as the hands come through.

I think FFS described it pretty well in an above post as far as bat drag. I treat it as a symptom and work from there.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

This is not directed at you specifically, but all of us involved.
I said this for along time and it continues, and continues and continues . . . .
And, It's why I am asking for clarification from anyone who wants to chime in.
Mark H (you as well): CONNECTION is a PROCESS (connecting)
Candrea: CONNECTION is a POSITION (connected)

Since I am not chatting with Candrea, but rather you, we can't effectively communicate because I am flying by Candrea's definition of connection.
This is just one example of why understanding is usually lacking on web discussions.

Mike Candrea:
connection - rear elbow and rear hand lining up with the stripe of the pants.

Another example:
Slotted rear elbow is not synonymous with slotting rear elbow.
Is a SLOTTED rear elbow the same as Candrea's definition of CONNECTION?

What Mike refers to as "connection" is a somewhat different topic ... he is speaking of the concept of "addition" ... of the concept of synchronization of the upper and lower bodies.

What I am referring to as "connection" is the establishment of linkages ... as in the hands being 'connected' to the upper torso.

When people speak of a "connected swing", in terms of the relative position of the hands and rear shoulder ... or in terms of the elbows being roughly an equal distance apart during the rotation of the upper body ... they are, IMO, speaking of the "connected" links being maintained to allow for what they consider a "connected swing".

Both important concepts ... unfortunately given the same name.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

On a side note, I can see how the grip contributes to bat drag.

I have seen knuckle knocker grips increase the likelihood of bat drag by putting the elbows too close together and forcing pulling with the back arm.

 

[softballphreak]

Failed to move the lower body???

I certainly hope no one here is advocating that. To the contrary ..... I think most people understand the importance of following a proper kinetic sequence.

I'd like to believe that we all understand the importance of the "lower body running start" ... on every pitch ... whether you swing or not ... whether you 'use' your 'hands' or not.

Here is section of a post from BoardMember. I like it ... I've shared it with my hitters ... as I believe it helps get the point across.

----

Boardmember:

The lower body ALWAYS GOES..........Whether the hands go or not.........This is achieved by UNLOADING from the ground up..........

The train is leaving the station........whether the hands jump on or not...............The HANDS swing the bat........But they should ALWAYS be swinging FROM THE TOP OF A MOVING TRAIN.........

This lower body is doing the exact same thing EVERY TIME.........On one side of this clip the hands jumped on early......On the other side, they stayed on the platform waiting for the next train........

You cannot do this if your hands are inchage of THE LOWER BODY........Mentally OR physically..........

The lower body ALWAYS goes..........Or at least STARTS going........From the ground up...........

If the train ALWAYS LEAVES.......Then the hands can jump on and SWING THE BAT early or LATE.........And still harness the power of the lower body train.........

Not sure how/why you'd argue this either........But maybe you see it differently then me.........

The hands are quick.......The hips are slow........The hands can catch a ride (a whip) on the "hip train" anytime they want.........

EXCELLENT!! Made my day! Thanks for Boardmember's post. Now I have a new cue for my batters. The train is always leaving the station ...

Great!

 

[Chris O'Leary]

The varying positions I'm referring to has to do with how close the elbow is to the side--not really a position, per se.

The slot elbow can get ahead of the hands (bat drag symptom) but still remain slotted, so to speak.

It's really about sequencing.

In a good, middle out, swing the back elbow goes with or just behind the rear hip.

In a less efficient, top-down, swing the back elbow gets ahead of the rear hip.

 

[redzuk]

Someone please explain to me how the back elbow slots/connects during the swing.
When does it begin to move (slot/connect), where does it go, and what is getting it there?
Thanks BD I would post it , but the last time Howard posted this it got ugly. Like some things some see black other see white looking at the same picture. If you want I will PM you, but if you search hitters posts from last year, he covered this in detail. Also read his posts on grip and how to use a hammer. It would answer some of the stuff being posted about bat drag. I worked with a young lady last night and cured most of her problems , but just fixing her grip. The string on the first finger on the top hand trick.

I'd forgotten how lively things can get on this board. I'd like to see what your talking about. I remember Hitter using saran wrap to teach something about grip, dont recall a string. If your fixing drag with the grip, you probably think I'm way off base in what I replied to FFS about timing being the cause?

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Mark H (you as well): CONNECTION is a PROCESS (connecting)
Candrea: CONNECTION is a POSITION (connected)

It does have to be black or white.

In truth, connection is a PROCESS that is often best taught, and first understood, as a series of POSITIONS.

 

[theaddition]

I have seen knuckle knocker grips increase the likelihood of bat drag by putting the elbows too close together and forcing pulling with the back arm.

That's exactly what I was thinking

BD