Dead Ball and Runner Out or Illegal Pitch

[riseball]

NSA rules not that it probably matters. Runner at 3rd. Pitcher toes rubber and starts motion but commits an illegal pitch as her hand passes the hip a second time. However, as her hand passes by her hip at the normal release point runner at 3rd bolts for home prior to the commission of the illegal pitch.

Discussion ensues where it was pointed out that a runner leaving early is an immediate dead ball and all subsequent actions by pitcher, and the illegal pitch is moot. And runner should be called out.

Umpire first states that they really do not go by the ball leaving the hand, just when the hand passes the hip the first time. It was pointed out that this is not the rule as stated in the rule book. To which the umpire said; "you cannot intentionally deceive the defense". So it would stand to reason that fake bunts, delayed steals etc. must also be illegal. Also pointed out that based on a word search on this nonsense both the word deceive and the word deception are not mentioned in the rule book.

What say you? Runner out at 3rd or Illegal Pitch?

 

[Sparky Guy]

Given the leaving early happened PRIOR to the illegal pitch the play is immedialtly dead by rule. Anything that happens AFTER the play is dead is inconsequential.

Runner on 3rd is out. Pitcher caught a break.

 

[Sparky Guy]

It is funny you mention the word deception. A while ago we were playing a team and the opposing pitcher threw an eephus change for a strike to one of my hitters. It was a thing of beauty. My hitter was turned into a statue. The umpire calls "Illegal pitch, deception." The pitch was perfectly legal.

The opposing coach lost the argument with the umpire. I was listening to her talk to him from a few feet away. It was obvious she did not know the pitching rules and how to address them with an umpire. She never asked him specifically what was illegal about the pitch. His only argument was the pitch was deceptive.

I knew I caught a break and was not about to try an educate the opposing coach or the umpire.

 

[Comp]

It is funny you mention the word deception. A while ago we were playing a team and the opposing pitcher threw an eephus change for a strike to one of my hitters. It was a thing of beauty. My hitter was turned into a statue. The umpire calls "Illegal pitch, deception." The pitch was perfectly legal.

The opposing coach lost the argument with the umpire. I was listening to her talk to him from a few feet away. It was obvious she did not know the pitching rules and how to address them with an umpire. She never asked him specifically what was illegal about the pitch. His only argument was the pitch was deceptive.

I knew I caught a break and was not about to try an educate the opposing coach or the umpire.

What exactly did the pitcher do that you are calling an eephus change?

 

[Comp]

"NSA rules not that it probably matters. Runner at 3rd. Pitcher toes rubber and starts motion but commits an illegal pitch as her hand passes the hip a second time. However, as her hand passes by her hip at the normal release point runner at 3rd bolts for home prior to the commission of the illegal pitch. "

There is no rule about the hand passing the hip any particular number of times, there is a limit on the number of rotations the arm can make. What exactly did the pitcher do? Are you saying she did not release the ball and held onto it for an additional rotation?

If that is what you are saying, it is going to depend on ruleset. I believe NFHS states that it is still the responsibility of the runner to maintain contact with the base until the release of the ball, but in USA I seem to remember a case play somewhere that it is illegal for the pitcher to commit an illegal pitch with the intent of causing a runner to violate the lookback rule.

 

[radness]

its a do over
Pg 384 article 59:3 amendment #12

Thats an interesting predicament!
It would take one umpire to notice both things.
Or two umpires to see both things and agree to one ruling.

 

[Comp]

What is it you are referencing as page 384, article 59:3 amendment 12?

 

[Strike2]

In USSSA, both penalties are enforced...from page 16 of the Holy Book of Interpretations

"The question comes what to do if you have an illegal pitch and a runner leaving base early on the same play. Since the illegal pitch is a delayed dead ball, play continues. However the runner leaving early is a dead ball. This ends the play and both penalties should be enforced. The runner who left base early is out. The batter is awarded a ball for the illegal pitch."

There's also language in Rule 11 (Sporting Behavior) that could give the umpire some judgement room if he/she believed that the pitcher was intentionally trying to bait the runner off early.

 

[riseball]

In USSSA, both penalties are enforced...from page 16 of the Holy Book of Interpretations

"The question comes what to do if you have an illegal pitch and a runner leaving base early on the same play. Since the illegal pitch is a delayed dead ball, play continues. However the runner leaving early is a dead ball. This ends the play and both penalties should be enforced. The runner who left base early is out. The batter is awarded a ball for the illegal pitch."

This only sounds applicable if the illegal pitch occurs before the runner leaving early. Otherwise it completely contradicts its own rules that leaving early is an immediate dead ball and a no pitch. Am I wrong?

 

[Strike2]

This only sounds applicable if the illegal pitch occurs before the runner leaving early. Otherwise it completely contradicts its own rules that leaving early is an immediate dead ball and a no pitch. Am I wrong?

Unless the runner took off prior to the pitcher starting her delivery, I'm not sure how the runner could leave early enough BEFORE a specific illegal act within the pitching motion for it to be distinguishable. Further, different umpires are likely making those calls. For all practical purposes within USSSA rules, the violations are simultaneous.