Check Points

[FiveFrameSwing]

Mr T ... what Wellphyt didn't mention was what portion of the rear elbow lowering was governed by external rotation of the rear upper arm within the rear shoulder socket. This action is incredibly brief ... and actually leads to a resistive type fusion process. To make a long story short, only the first few inches of the rear elbow lowering process takes place while the rear upper arm is externally rotating. In fact, it is very important that all external rotation of the rear upper arm be quickly frozen out, basically fused, quickly during the rear elbow lowering. Failure to 'fuse' will lead to 'bat drag' .... that is, while ER often is present at the start of the rear elbow lowering process, it must be aborted relatively quickly.

From the perspective of the upper arm, there is actually a form of resistance that takes place to further lowering of the rear elbow shortly after the rear elbow begins lowering.

Here are the swing frames in Barry Bonds' swing in which his rear upper arm is externally rotating. After this portion in his swing there is no further external rotation of the rear upper arm.

Same goes for other high-end hitters. Here are the frames of external rotation of the rear upper arm for Cabrera's swing ... and again, there is no further ER of the rear upper arm after this point in his swing ....

Same goes for Pappi ....

Same goes for Pujols ....

In all of the above clips, ER of the rear upper arm is complete at the end of the swing clip portion shown ... there is no further ER of the rear upper arm ... yet the rear elbow has a long way to go in terms of lowering.

Experiment for you to run ... if you were to get your swing to the point at the end of the clips shown above, at which point ER of the rear upper arm is frozen/fused, AND if you were to begin supinating your rear forearm, then what would happen to your rear elbow? Mine would lower ... adduct.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Don Slaught says the back elbow intiates rotation. You shouldn't have to think about the hips if the back arm works correctly.

AKA Skip a Rock.

One thing I have found is you have to be careful that the person using this analogy understands that the hands have to beat the back elbow and shoulder around the corner else you can get some pretty bad bat drag. Perhaps this is what you mean about the hands must go 100% while the shouder goes at about 80%?

I simply tell my kids to make sure the hands win the race around corner. Seems to work.

The hips and lower torso are at about an 80% overall effort level ..... and it is because the hips/torso go first in terms of grabbing the rear shoulder (leading to lateral tilt) that the hands need to respond at a near 100% effort level.

Wellphyt is correct IMO when he suggests that the hips & lower torso are at an effort level of approximately 80% and that the hands are at an effort level of roughly 100%. What is most important is the sequence ... the hips & lower torso need to first 'grab', and then the hands kick in at 100% ... get the sequence wrong, and the discussion of effort level is somewhat meaningless.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

now,I have a slight different aspect on how the hips are to uncoil.If it is off the wall then I'am just seeing what the group thinks.When I talk to my dd about uncoiling the hips,I don't want her to think that the front hip should pull the hips open,or the rear hip pushing the hips open with easy,but rather them creating tension between the push and pull of the hips.With the push forward of the hips overcoming the front hip,rather then the front hip just opening up.It's like your front hip is trying to overcome the back hip from pushing the hips open.It just seems that you can make more energy that way.Just throwing that out there,will not take offense to any comments,just seeing if it makes sense to anyone else,or if this idea is all ready out there.

Nano ... I'm pasting this from a post I made elsewhere ... it covers the capture of barrel transition in terms of getting the barrel to initiate in the direction of its swing arc.

In terms of the audible sound … what is more important to me than trying to artificially match up a ‘click sound’ (or the rear heel release) to another action, is the use of the hips & core to capture transition of the barrel. Get that right … learn to capture transition of the barrel with the lower body … and the artificial goal of timing the rear heel lift becomes somewhat academic. Some top-level instructors consider the capturing of transition to be by far the most crucial part of the swing. IMO that is what should be mastered. Master the capturing of transition “with the lower body”, and the rear heel release will be more a ‘result’ of properly capturing transition.

Get barefoot and perform tee swings. Work on your hips & lower body being responsible for what moves the barrel into its initial swing arc. When you do this, place feel sensors throughout your body and ask yourself what is responsible for capturing transition. Learn what it feels like “to you” to capture the initiation of the swing arc with the lower body. Do you have a sense that the front hip starts the lower body action? Do you have a sense that the left knee starts the action? Do you have a sense that a pushing off of the rear foot or knee starts the action? Do you have a sense that the twisting of the lower torso forward, ahead of the upper torso, starts the action? Do you have a sense that the right hip, right upper quad and right oblique begin the action? That last one would be a very nice answer IMO … but the point is, what is the feel “for you” as you learn to use the lower body to capture transition of the barrel? Learn how it feels to you. Master transition of the barrel … and you’ll stop chasing side issues like timing the release of the rear heel.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Don Slaught says the back elbow intiates rotation. You shouldn't have to think about the hips if the back arm works correctly.

AKA Skip a Rock.

One thing I have found is you have to be careful that the person using this analogy understands that the hands have to beat the back elbow and shoulder around the corner else you can get some pretty bad bat drag. Perhaps this is what you mean about the hands must go 100% while the shouder goes at about 80%?

I simply tell my kids to make sure the hands win the race around corner. Seems to work.

What initiates movement of the "rear elbow"? Hint ... it isn't the rear elbow ... that is, you aren't using a muscle in the rear elbow to initiate lowering the rear elbow. The rear elbow, from the perspective of the swing sequence, is more a 'marker' IMO.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Williams used a style which kept his back elbow closer to his side. He used the analogy of a boxer preparing to throw a punch. He felt this stlye gave him a little extra umph. With the back elbow in this position it is already very close to being slotted, so very little adduction takes place. However notice how Ted's bat still flattens into the swng plane. The action that he uses to flatten the bat to the swing plane is what I see missing in most kid's swings.

IMO, what you are describing is the concept of "hitting with your body" ... some describe this as having the feel of "hitting behind the ball" ... basically a "connected swing", where one attempts to hit the ball with a Force = Mass x Acceleration, with the 'mass' not being merely the mass of the bat barrel, but more a combination of the mass of the bat barrel and their body. Likewise, the 'acceleration' isn't merely the acceleration of the barrel, but the acceleration in the 'thrust' associated with the 1" punch type action ... and if you follow the rear hip action of IR-ER-IR, then it is the 'thrust' associated with the transition from ER-to-IR with respect to the rear hip ... basically the thrust that weights the front heel.

 

[guero_gordo]

If I go into a bio mechanics lesson on all the muscles and ligaments involved in internally or externally rotating the arm to slot the elbow....I've already lost them.

Yeah, I'm afraid the distinction between practical hitting and technical hitting forums has been lost.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

How do you relay engineering and bio mechanics terms into teaching a kid how to swing a bat? DO you guys really speak this way to your kids when you teach?

My own two kids would have to run and get a dictionary if I used terms like adduction, abduction, eversion etc. Problem is they probably wouldn't come back...

Relaying information to a hitter is quite simple ... especially via one-on-one instruction. In a one-on-on interaction it is simple to see if a hitter is replicating the action that is desired.

Big difference between discussing the details of hitting with an instructor over the Internet and a 1-on-1 interaction with a hitter.

Many hitter instructors ... perhaps not inclusive of you ... wish to learn the finer details of the swing. The word 'twist' or 'rotate' can be interpreted differently in terms of 'direction', whereas the words 'supinate', 'pronate', 'external rotation', 'internal rotation' have a specific direction relative to a twisting motion. Simply, it's about avoiding mis-communication amongst hitting instructors interested in the details ... and make no mistake about it, the details are important for many hitting instructors. An instructor working with a hitter need not use such words ... mainly because they are able to communicate directly and avoid mis-communication issues.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Who cares what makes the elbow move? I know a kid doesn't. If you tell them to skip a rock they will probably get the idea of what you want.

If I go into a bio mechanics lesson on all the muscles and ligaments involved in internally or externally rotating the arm to slot the elbow....I've already lost them.

Regarding the 'bold' above ..... it was 'you' that wrote "Don Slaught says the back elbow intiates rotation." ... so I assume that it is 'you' that 'cared'.

The rear elbow is a 'result' of the swing being initiated. There are multiple ways one can lower their elbow ... and the action that captures that action is not the 'elbow' per say.

The capturing of 'swing initiation', especially barrel transition, is a major issue that many here get incorrect ... as can be seen by the evidence of several posted videos of young kids. IMO, it should be a topic that hitting instructors care about.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Yeah, I'm afraid the distinction between practical hitting and technical hitting forums has been lost.

Avoiding the details, and searching for a simplified "add water & stir" type solution, is seldom the best answer for those with long-term interests in improving their hitting skills as they progress along their journey ... but if that approach works best for some, then they are free to adopt that approach.

 

[Justanotherdad]

Because of the wide range of interests, some of which conflict, we have decided to split the old single hitting forum into two forums. This idea comes at the suggestion of Batsics1; we thank him for the suggestion.

This forum is designed for coaches and parents to seek out practical, experience-based advice for specific hitting issues. It is NOT the place to discuss hitting theory, or to provide a technical dissection of what makes a good swing. ANY posts along those lines will be deleted regardless of merit.

On this forum, video is limited to those of players you work with directly, devices you (or your coach) make, drills you personally run. No video of MLB or high-level softball hitters is to be used here.

If you want to start a technical discussion about a thread on this forum, you may cut and paste the key post(s) and start a new thread in the technical hitting forum. There you may post all the professional video you want. You may also leave a pointer on this forum to let those who are interested in such technical discussion know that it is taking place on the other hitting forum.

Again, this forum is for coaches and parents to share their first-hand knowledge and exchange ideas about things they have implemented and that have worked for them with actual hitters. No quoting of outside experts is allowed, unless your daughter or son has worked with that expert. And even then, the discussion needs to be limited to what your daughter or son was told, not what is in that expert's DVD or book.

This forum will be heavily and mercilessly moderated. As always, please keep all discussion polite. All the standard rules of the Discuss Fastpitch Forum still apply.

We look forward to great discussions on both forums.

See the above.