Being open...a Riseball absolute?

[lhowser]

Here is a look at what I believe to be an effective riseball from a successful high end pitcher

<img src="http://i50.tinypic.com/fycxtz.gif" border="0" alt="">

It is often said that to throw a riseball you have to be open and many say open and slightly leaning back. This video clip would seem to contradict this.

I am always looking for true pitching absolutes. It helps one address the problems instead of the symptoms.

Has anyone taught or been taught open and lean back? Does this video change your view?

 

[459'smom]

Here is a look at what I believe to be an effective riseball from a successful high end pitcher

<img src="http://i50.tinypic.com/fycxtz.gif" border="0" alt="">

It is often said that to throw a riseball you have to be open and many say open and slightly leaning back. This video clip would seem to contradict this.

I am always looking for true pitching absolutes. It helps one address the problems instead of the symptoms.

Has anyone taught or been taught open and lean back? Does this video change your view?

Bill Hillhouse teaches NOT to lean back to throw a rise. Google his pitching videos and he explain.

 

[halskinner]

For a cut riseball, I think it helps to stay a little more open than closed mechanics. Although I am one of those that taught the bent fingered rise and sometimes the cut rise also.

Dropping the shoulder with a bent fingered rise is what we always referred to as "Ducking under the ball". Practiced well with the timing of the droppimg of the shoulder turns a riseball into a nasty up and in.

 

[Ken B]

When you say open, do you mean releasing with the torso at 45 or closer to 90?

 

[CoachKirk]

Here is a look at what I believe to be an effective riseball from a successful high end pitcher

<img src="http://i50.tinypic.com/fycxtz.gif" border="0" alt="">

It is often said that to throw a riseball you have to be open and many say open and slightly leaning back. This video clip would seem to contradict this.

I am always looking for true pitching absolutes. It helps one address the problems instead of the symptoms.

Has anyone taught or been taught open and lean back? Does this video change your view?

Nice video of Kristen Nottleman (Missouri). Considering that Doug Gillis (Mizzou pitching consultant) still uses video footage of her in his clinics I'd say that her mechanics are made up of absolutes. However, Doug Gillis teaches 'absolutes' that are universal to all pitches - not just a particular pitch. He does NOT believe or teach that you use different mechanics when throwing a riseball vs. a dropball, etc. as some pitching instructors do. As far as needing to be 'open' on a riseball... According to Gillis the amount of 'openness' for pitchers can vary based on body type. Kristen Nottelman is/was very 'petite', slinder and narrow hipped. Contrast that with Chelsea Thomas who is much more 'stocky' and wider hipped. If you were to watch the same video of Chelsea you would see her to be more 'open' vs. Kristen.

 

[NVfishing]

Male instructors can say or demonstrate what they want (and certain female pitchers may follow that advice if it works for them) but the large majority of female pitchers ARE using different mechanics for different pitches. The results speak for themselves

Carly's dad recommends some different things for different pitches, same as the grip may be different.
Again, who cares? Is dogma one way better than dogma another way?

So you can post her til you are blue in the face or wish on a star but you aint gonna change reality.

If you have a group of five girls that are all equal in ability when it comes to pitching then the little things matter. Looking the same on every pitch matters. If four of the five girls give a tell on what pitch is coming they lose an advantage. Keeping your pitches looking the same matters when you start going further into your pitching career. Batters catch up to pitching and pitching technique.

 

[curiousgeorge]

Male instructors can say or demonstrate what they want (and certain female pitchers may follow that advice if it works for them) but the large majority of female pitchers ARE using different mechanics for different pitches. The results speak for themselves

Well said. Gillis or no Gillis, this girl spent her pitching career with a different pitching coach than Gillis (most likely). So he's not going to change her or make her completely abandon what got her to Missouri. He's going to try to enhance what she can, not make her do a 180 on what she does. That said, I do believe she would be better if she did do what he told her to do... but it's that "old dog" scenario.

Based on what i see in this video and what I know about pitching (learned at my DD's lessons) I do not believe she has backspin on her riseball. Her rise is probably a "high pitch" more than one that is supposed to have backspin as taught by my DD's coach. I realize this leads to the "does it go up" argument so Ill stop right there.

CG

 

[CoachKirk]

Well said. Gillis or no Gillis, this girl spent her pitching career with a different pitching coach than Gillis (most likely). So he's not going to change her or make her completely abandon what got her to Missouri. He's going to try to enhance what she can, not make her do a 180 on what she does. That said, I do believe she would be better if she did do what he told her to do... but it's that "old dog" scenario.

Based on what i see in this video and what I know about pitching (learned at my DD's lessons) I do not believe she has backspin on her riseball. Her rise is probably a "high pitch" more than one that is supposed to have backspin as taught by my DD's coach. I realize this leads to the "does it go up" argument so Ill stop right there.

CG

You are obviously not familiar with the Missouri softball program and Doug Gillis's role with the pitching staff...

Kristen Nottleman graduated last year (2012) from Missouri. In 2010 when Chelsea Thomas was red-shirted, Nottleman pitched Mizzou all the way to the college World Series. BTW, she did this with a stress fracture in her pitching hand. She was an ELITE pitcher, one of the best in the country. Her riseball was NOT a "high pitch".

 

[curiousgeorge]

CoachKirk

I won't pretend to have as much insight into the Mizzou program as you seem to have. But my DD's coach is pretty good friends with Gillis: former teammate, opponent, etc. So, what insight I do have comes from our coach. So, it's entirely possible that you have more first hand info than me (or our coach). But before we continue, I want you to know I consider Gillis to be one of the best PCs in the country.

But Gillis lives in Michigan, works part time in Missouri (among other places). Where is this pitcher from? Was she a student of his throughout her high school? If she was from California (for example) then in all likelihood her development (good and bad) came to Missouri with her. Once they get to school, a coach can only do "so much". I don't think Earlywhine, Gillis, and Missouri are the types of coaches who recruit a player then change her 180 degrees when she's at the school. Are they? I've never understood coaches who do that.

CG

 

[CoachKirk]

CoachKirk

I won't pretend to have as much insight into the Mizzou program as you seem to have. But my DD's coach is pretty good friends with Gillis: former teammate, opponent, etc. So, what insight I do have comes from our coach. So, it's entirely possible that you have more first hand info than me (or our coach). But before we continue, I want you to know I consider Gillis to be one of the best PCs in the country.

But Gillis lives in Michigan, works part time in Missouri (among other places). Where is this pitcher from? Was she a student of his throughout her high school? If she was from California (for example) then in all likelihood her development (good and bad) came to Missouri with her. Once they get to school, a coach can only do "so much". I don't think Earlywhine, Gillis, and Missouri are the types of coaches who recruit a player then change her 180 degrees when she's at the school. Are they? I've never understood coaches who do that.

CG

Kristen Nottelmann is from St. Louis. Here's a link to her profile on the Mizzou website:
Kristin Nottelmann Profile - MUTIGERS.COM - The University of Missouri Official Athletic Site

You are correct in that they (Missouri) did not have to change much in her pitching mechanics. From what she told me is that her pitching instructor in St. Louis (who's name I will leave out of this) taught different postures as absolutes for different pitches. That's one of the things that Missouri changed under Gillis's guidance. The original post was asking about 'absolutes' regarding the riseball. The point I was trying to make was that according to Gillis the absolutes that one should concern themselves with are with core pitching mechanics - not individual pitches.