Bad sportsmanship, broken rule, Or I'm just wrong...

[2 DD Coach]

So heres the situation: 10u pool game for rec leauge fall ball, playing ASA 10jo rules. Runner on third and first, Runner on third is the catcher. Batter dribbles one back to the pitcher on 3b side. Pitcher picks up the ball and tosses it to the catcher who is standing inside the baseline on 3b side. Catcher starts up the line to push the runner on third back, but the runner on third just starts running towards her. At about ten feet up the line the runner crosses her arms out in front of her and lowers her helmet head first into the catcher. The runner had the definite size and weight advantage, so the catcher gets knocked back about four feet, but holds onto the ball.

The runner was not in a force situation, and you could tell by the way it happened her intent was to try and hit the catcher as hard as she could to try and get her to drop the ball. (after she slammed the catcher she ran to home plate then turned around to see if the catcher still had the ball.)

So I was hot and called time, walked out and told blue I thought that was ridiculous. Blue said "Yes it was, but you can't let small things turn into big things." I informed her I didn't think that was such a small thing, and walked back to the dugout.

So am I wrong here? what is the rule covering a play down the baseline? If it had been a play at home and she had done that, she would have been out no matter what if she hadn't slid to avoid the collision. Is there a rule against going helmet first into a defensive player? Even the other teams 3rd base coach said right away that he would talk to her, and she would have to apologize because that was unacceptable.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

So heres the situation: 10u pool game for rec leauge fall ball, playing ASA 10jo rules. Runner on third and first, Runner on third is the catcher. Batter dribbles one back to the pitcher on 3b side. Pitcher picks up the ball and tosses it to the catcher who is standing inside the baseline on 3b side. Catcher starts up the line to push the runner on third back, but the runner on third just starts running towards her. At about ten feet up the line the runner crosses her arms out in front of her and lowers her helmet head first into the catcher. The runner had the definite size and weight advantage, so the catcher gets knocked back about four feet, but holds onto the ball.

The runner was not in a force situation, and you could tell by the way it happened her intent was to try and hit the catcher as hard as she could to try and get her to drop the ball. (after she slammed the catcher she ran to home plate then turned around to see if the catcher still had the ball.)

So I was hot and called time, walked out and told blue I thought that was ridiculous. Blue said "Yes it was, but you can't let small things turn into big things." I informed her I didn't think that was such a small thing, and walked back to the dugout.

So am I wrong here? what is the rule covering a play down the baseline? If it had been a play at home and she had done that, she would have been out no matter what if she hadn't slid to avoid the collision. Is there a rule against going helmet first into a defensive player? Even the other teams 3rd base coach said right away that he would talk to her, and she would have to apologize because that was unacceptable.

I found this...

When a defensive player has the ball, and the runner remains on his/her feet and deliberately crashes into the defensive player waiting to apply the tag, the runner is out, the ball is dead and all other runners must return to the last base touched at the time of the collision. Note: If the act is determined to be flagrant, the offender shall be ejected. In order to prevent a deliberate crash ruling, the runner can give up, slide, go around the defender, or return to the previous base touched.

Most youth leagues that I know of have no collision rules like this.

Around here, this is one of the few things that the umps go over during ground rules because they are emphatic about preventing incidents like this.

 

[SoCalASABlue]

I know I'm going to catch a lot of flak for this, but the base runner should have been immediately ejected regardless of her age and regardless of whether it was rec ball or higher level.

 

[shockcoach]

I know I'm going to catch a lot of flak for this, but the base runner should have been immediately ejected regardless of her age and regardless of whether it was rec ball or higher level.

I agree. However, at 10U some teaching needs to be done. No better lesson than an ejection coming from the umpire in me.

 

[Lozza]

100% on the ejection. No better way to teach the rules than to throw you out of the game.

 

[BretMan]

If it had been a play at home and she had done that, she would have been out no matter what if she hadn't slid to avoid the collision.

A couple of misconceptions in that single sentence.

- "If it had been a play at home...". If it had been a play at any other base or an other point on the field, the same rule would apply. In other words, there isn't a different rule and standard applied to plays at the plate. It is never legal to purposely crash into a fielder holding the ball and waiting to make a tag.

- "..she would have been out no matter what if she hadn't slid to avoid the collision." There is no rule that requires a runner to slide, ever, for any reason at any point on the field. Runners are obligated to avoid contact and that can be accomplished by slowing down, stopping, retreating or going around the fielder- and also by sliding, if the runner choses to slide, but she is never required to slide.

When a runner crashes into a fielder with the ball waiting to make a tag, the ball is dead and the runner is out- even if the ball was dropped. The rules call for an ejection if the umpire judges the collision to be flagrant (ie: malicious, with the intent to injure or with excessive force that could have been avoided). I would have to leave the "flagrant" nature of the play up to the umpire that actually was on the field and saw it. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I've seen some pretty spectacular crashes between players that were just the result of two players trying to make a play, rather than from any malicious intent.

Malicious or not, in a 10U rec league game I'm not going to shgug this off like your umpire did. I'm probably going to remind the coach to instruct his players of their responsibility to avoid contact on these plays and let him know the possible penalties if they don't.

 

[2 DD Coach]

A couple of misconceptions in that single sentence.

- "If it had been a play at home...". If it had been a play at any other base or an other point on the field, the same rule would apply. In other words, there isn't a different rule and standard applied to plays at the plate. It is never legal to purposely crash into a fielder holding the ball and waiting to make a tag.

- "..she would have been out no matter what if she hadn't slid to avoid the collision." There is no rule that requires a runner to slide, ever, for any reason at any point on the field. Runners are obligated to avoid contact and that can be accomplished by slowing down, stopping, retreating or going around the fielder- and also by sliding, if the runner choses to slide, but she is never required to slide.

We are a BAJA league, so we use the ASA rules with some specific league rules. The league rules call for the runner to slide at home plate to avoid a collision. However, as I type this I can't remember ever reading this rule. It is enforced by the umps and coaches, but that doesn't make it a rule. I will have to research this further.

When a runner crashes into a fielder with the ball waiting to make a tag, the ball is dead and the runner is out- even if the ball was dropped. The rules call for an ejection if the umpire judges the collision to be flagrant (ie: malicious, with the intent to injure or with excessive force that could have been avoided). I would have to leave the "flagrant" nature of the play up to the umpire that actually was on the field and saw it. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I've seen some pretty spectacular crashes between players that were just the result of two players trying to make a play, rather than from any malicious intent.

Malicious or not, in a 10U rec league game I'm not going to shgug this off like your umpire did. I'm probably going to remind the coach to instruct his players of their responsibility to avoid contact on these plays and let him know the possible penalties if they don't.

This was as clear cut as it could get(IMOP). The runner hadn't even started moving untill after the catcher had the ball and was moving up the baseline. The collision happened ten feet up the line from home plate. The runner took her lead off at the pitch, and could have turned around and just went back to base. The catcher had the ball in her glove with her throwing hand on it. She never made any motion to indicate a throw. I played catcher for years, and have told my catchers that they have to expect collisions, but this was just out of line. I thought she should have been ejected, or the ump should say something at least.

 

[BretMan]

We are a BAJA league, so we use the ASA rules with some specific league rules.

Okay. I just thought that when you said you were "playing ASA rules", it meant you were using standard ASA rules.

Many leagues add their own "must slide" rules in the (misguided) name of safety. Maybe they don't realize that more baseball and softball injuries occur through the act of sliding than from all of the players colliding or being hit by thrown or batted balls combined. Statistically, sliding is perhaps the most dangerous activity that a player can perform on the field. And yet some leagues make sliding mandatory in the name of "safety", despite the fact that the casual player may not be physically capable of safely performing that act or had ever received any instruction in the proper techniques.

The standard rules already prohibit crashing into fielders and present players with a host of other legal options to avoid contact. Teaching and enforcing those existing rules goes a lot further toward the goal of safety than mandating that a player perform a risky act.

(Getting down off my "why I hate mandatory slide rules" soapbox...)

This was as clear cut as it could get (IMOP).

I wouldn't deny you your opinion or that of any other person who actually saw the play. I didn't see it and have a hard time making a judgment call on a play I didn't see. But that doesn't change the playing rule and how it should be enforced. This is an ejectionable offense, with the ejection being at the discretion of the umpire- who, you hope, does know the rule and understand how to administer it.