Pitching advice - missing a lot left/right - form improvements

Hi all,

I was hoping that some of you might be able to advise me on how best to proceed with DD's pitching. We've spent a lot of time working on internal rotation mechanics, and I feel like she is executing that somewhat. I feel like she has a form issue going on, and I don't feel like I am very good at advising her on those mechanics.

She is struggling missing pitches high and a lot high and inside to a righty. Missing left and right in general is a big struggle for her. My observations are that a couple things are messing her up.

- Glove hand gone wild...
- Using shoulder rotation at release to gain power

With regard to her shoulder rotation, I feel like something is not right with her initial shoulder rotation in that she goes from open (facing batter) to completely closed as she strides. Then she has to recover her shoulders from the fully closed position to get back to a partially open position. I wonder if maybe she should not be turning her shoulders so far back that she has to turn them back forward again to release.

Any advice or drills would be very much appreciated.

Slo motion pitch from rear



Slo-mo video of her release




I made this side by side video. The pitch on the left ended high and inside (RH batter) while the pitch on the right went high and outside.

Side by side

Would you consider using a small backswing to help create some arm momentum, while her timing/sequencing mechanics get sorted out? I think that will help lead to a faster resolution. If so, video her and then start step by stepping thru this.

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/18135-drive-mechanics.html

My daughter has been pitching while trying to compensate for an unknown impingement for 4 years clear up to the 18a level. Java picked it up sight unseen. The man knows his stuff. We are talking 12% speed and 20% spin increase in 1/2 hour. And she is not even grooved yet.

Did i mention this thread http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/18135-drive-mechanics.html

edit: Actually it's 8% on the speed. Poor math skills on my part.

I'm a big proponent of internal rotation...but it isn't the entire pitching motion. It is one part of the pitching motion. If something else in the motion is messed up, IR doesn't matter.

So, your DD has problem with the "circle plane". The plane of the arm circle is supposed to be as close to vertical as possible. Your DD's is messed.

I've attached a picture showing your DD at 12 and at 6 (release).

1) Do you see that her arm circle isn't vertical? The ball at 12 is perhaps an inch to the *RIGHT* of her left ear. At release, the ball is about two inches from her *LEFT* ear. So, the ball is traveling in a plane that is perhaps 20 to 30 degrees tilted from horizontal. The "tilt of the plane" reduces accuracy. Attached are pictures of Jenny Finch and Ueno at 12. You can see where the ball is supposed to be at 12.

2) At release, notice the location of your DD's hand at release. It is about 8 inches from her hip. I've attached shots of Ueno and Osterman at release. Look at the location of their hands at release. Their hands are right next to the hip.

So, she needs to work on getting the ball straight up and down at 12 and getting the ball closer to her hip at release.

There is a thread about "brush interference". The arm should "brush" her hip as she throws.

Sluggers ... in your opinion, what is the optimal bend/angle in the throwing arm at 12, 9 and at brush interference?

abbygale said:

Would you consider using a small backswing to help create some arm momentum, while her timing/sequencing mechanics get sorted out? I think that will help lead to a faster resolution. If so, video her and then start step by stepping thru this.

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/18135-drive-mechanics.html

My daughter has been pitching while trying to compensate for an unknown impingement for 4 years clear up to the 18a level. Java picked it up sight unseen. The man knows his stuff. We are talking 12% speed and 20% spin increase in 1/2 hour. And she is not even grooved yet.

Did i mention this thread http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/18135-drive-mechanics.html

edit: Actually it's 8% on the speed. Poor math skills on my part.

Click to expand...

Holy cow, that thread is AWESOME! I just spent 20 minutes on page 1! I will certainly be spending a lot of time getting to know those items very well. Thanks!

With regard to the backswing, DD and I intentionally removed it a year ago because it was getting way out of control. In the past I have commented on different levels of flexibility of kids and how much more easily some kids 'bend' when compared to others. My DD is very bendy and lose. As a result, her backswing used to be very wild leading to the even more problems like what sluggers has pointed out below.

That being said and after reading the first page of the drive thread, we will work on re-incorporating it in a more controlled manner. I appreciate the recommendation.

sluggers said:

I'm a big proponent of internal rotation...but it isn't the entire pitching motion. It is one part of the pitching motion. If something else in the motion is messed up, IR doesn't matter.

So, your DD has problem with the "circle plane". The plane of the arm circle is supposed to be as close to vertical as possible. Your DD's is messed.

I've attached a picture showing your DD at 12 and at 6 (release).

1) Do you see that her arm circle isn't vertical? The ball at 12 is perhaps an inch to the *RIGHT* of her left ear. At release, the ball is about two inches from her *LEFT* ear. So, the ball is traveling in a plane that is perhaps 20 to 30 degrees tilted from horizontal. The "tilt of the plane" reduces accuracy. Attached are pictures of Jenny Finch and Ueno at 12. You can see where the ball is supposed to be at 12.

2) At release, notice the location of your DD's hand at release. It is about 8 inches from her hip. I've attached shots of Ueno and Osterman at release. Look at the location of their hands at release. Their hands are right next to the hip.

So, she needs to work on getting the ball straight up and down at 12 and getting the ball closer to her hip at release.

There is a thread about "brush interference". The arm should "brush" her hip as she throws.

Click to expand...

Sluggers,

Thank you for the advice. I do see what you are saying and agree that it is a problem. I am concerned that what you are commenting on is a part of a bigger problem.

Would you mind taking a close look at her shoulder rotation throughout her stride? Can you compare this to other high level pitchers? I feel like her over rotation may be causing some of these issues, and possibly could be the root cause. I wonder if she could fix this rotation problem (if it is a problem) that her arm circle issues might resolve themselves.

For example, her arm circle does get too far from her body at 6 o'clock, but my observation is that her shoulder motion rotating back towards the batter caused her upper torso to run away from her arm so to speak.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this area.

Does anyone have a good clip or compilation of views of high level pitchers from the rear similar to what I've posted?

Thanks all!

Hello again.

We've been working on re-incorporating a backswing into her pitching motion. Overall it seems to have been pretty successful so long as she keeps the angle of the backswing in control. We are just now starting the conditioning drills in the drive mechanics thread and have taken one stab at the two step drill.

It appears that her left/right misses have improved a little with the changes. She was pitching pretty well the other day, but a play at the plate resulted in her pitching thumb getting folded back pretty far. She's ok, but it was the last she pitched in the tournament.

Someone suggested getting the arm to contact the hip.......I would go much farther than that. I believe the forearm should make "brush interference" with the side of the thigh all the way down to withing 1-2 inches above the wrist joint.....similar to this video clip.
Your DD is going to experience significant location variation because of the gap she has between her forearm and thigh. Her release point is going to vary because her arm is swing in mid air with minimal stabilization. To correct this will take tons of short distance backward chaining.....this should be part of every warm up she does. A simple tip......it will be extremely difficult to correct this from full distance/full energy.
Also, your DD seems to be forcing shoulder rotation. I will see if I have a video I can post to show how the shoulder rotation actually comes to a near stop at time of release.

This clip shows the sequencing of hip and shoulder action relative to the release. Note the hip rotation leads the shoulder rotation which creates a cross stretching of the torso muscles up to the shoulders.....this hip rotation is what should cause the shoulders to rotate. In your DD's case it appears she is forcing the shoulder rotation....she needs to just let it happen. The hip rotation stops for a millisecond just prior to and during release.......the shoulder rotation comes to a near stop at time of release also.....providing a solid/consistent foundation for the arm to pull against.

Rick Pauly said:

This clip shows the sequencing of hip and shoulder action relative to the release. Note the hip rotation leads the shoulder rotation which creates a cross stretching of the torso muscles up to the shoulders.....this hip rotation is what should cause the shoulders to rotate. In your DD's case it appears she is forcing the shoulder rotation....she needs to just let it happen. The hip rotation stops for a millisecond just prior to and during release.......the shoulder rotation comes to a near stop at time of release also.....providing a solid/consistent foundation for the arm to pull against.

Click to expand...

Rick ... very good.

Would you say that the hip rotation leading shoulder rotation also results in some ER, setting up more effective IR? Said another way, do you feel that the hip rotation leading shoulder rotation leads to what KenB refers to as 'lag' .... and the observance of the palm tilting somewhat more palm-up momentarily?