How to score this play?

I typically would give an SB on the first play if the C could block the ball, recover it, and still make a throw that nearly gets a runner out. My thought process on that is I would not score it a WP if the runner were thrown out, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to call it one if the throw is just a little late. I err on the side of the pitcher and runner on that one. But it is a judgment call and my judgment is not always right.
On the second play, I'd call it an e-2. The throw shouldn't be kicked away under any circumstances, and I agree with you that it likely was based on these facts. I don't see how the 3B could have done anything to prevent the ball from landing near the dugout based on this description. I would not score it a stolen base because, but for the ball being several feet away, that runner isn't going to advance and score the winning run.
On PB/WP, it's a judgment call. In MLB anything past the plate is generally called a passed ball, but not sure that is a fair standard in the younger ages for softball.

Elk Grove Hurricane said:

I typically would give an SB on the first play if the C could block the ball, recover it, and still make a throw that nearly gets a runner out. My thought process on that is I would not score it a WP if the runner were thrown out, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to call it one if the throw is just a little late. I err on the side of the pitcher and runner on that one. But it is a judgment call and my judgment is not always right.
On the second play, I'd call it an e-2. The throw shouldn't be kicked away under any circumstances, and I agree with you that it likely was based on these facts. I don't see how the 3B could have done anything to prevent the ball from landing near the dugout based on this description. I would not score it a stolen base because, but for the ball being several feet away, that runner isn't going to advance and score the winning run.
On PB/WP, it's a judgment call. In MLB anything past the plate is generally called a passed ball, but not sure that is a fair standard in the younger ages for softball.

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You would be correct by doing this because a runner MUST advance a base to be ruled a WP or a PB. The rules also states that if the runner is attempting to steal on the release of the pitch the runner shall be credited with a stolen base but if the runner attempts steal after the fact it will be credited as a WP/PB.

If the ball hits the dirt before the catcher has a chance to receive the pitch under ordinary efforts it should be scored as a WP.

TexAg1998 said:

Any pitch in the dirt is deemed wild if a runner advances, whether the catcher blocks it or not. Think about the wording in the NCAA rule book (14.28 for reference). It never says the ball has to get past or get away from the catcher, but simply that the catcher is unable to handle it with ordinary effort and a runner advances. That's exactly what happened in this case according OP's description, so the runner advanced to 3rd on a WP. If the catcher's throw hit the runner or the runner kicked it away before 3B could catch it, then E2. If the 3B caught it and it got knocked out, then E5. No stolen bases.


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I disagree, the OP said that the throw was low, so obviously the throw could have beaten the runner. So I would say SP then E2. If the runner knocked the ball away from 3B, then E5.

Elk Grove Hurricane said:

I typically would give an SB on the first play if the C could block the ball, recover it, and still make a throw that nearly gets a runner out. My thought process on that is I would not score it a WP if the runner were thrown out, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to call it one if the throw is just a little late. I err on the side of the pitcher and runner on that one. But it is a judgment call and my judgment is not always right.
On the second play, I'd call it an e-2. The throw shouldn't be kicked away under any circumstances, and I agree with you that it likely was based on these facts. I don't see how the 3B could have done anything to prevent the ball from landing near the dugout based on this description. I would not score it a stolen base because, but for the ball being several feet away, that runner isn't going to advance and score the winning run.
On PB/WP, it's a judgment call. In MLB anything past the plate is generally called a passed ball, but not sure that is a fair standard in the younger ages for softball.

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So what would you call it if the runner is on 3rd and the P throws it 10 feet over catchers head but they have a "chance" to get the runner out at home. If they get her it's not a WP, but if they don't it is. It's really no difference than a bobble by an infielder. If the runner gets to first because of the bobble it's an error but if you happen to still throw them out it's not.

This is an easy one. Canyonjoe has it right. This is another one of those scoring issues that really isn't up for debate as long as we agree on the facts of what happened (runner started to run to third *after* the ball hit the dirt/the throw was low and got away, but it was not dislodged from the glove by the slide).

canyonjoe said:

So what would you call it if the runner is on 3rd and the P throws it 10 feet over catchers head but they have a "chance" to get the runner out at home. If they get her it's not a WP, but if they don't it is. It's really no difference than a bobble by an infielder. If the runner gets to first because of the bobble it's an error but if you happen to still throw them out it's not.

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Just depends on how close the backstop is IMO. If the ball bounced directly to the catcher and was within a couple of feet? I'd call it a SB. If C has to run it down and by then the runner is off to the races? WP. The distinction I make here is when the ball gets past (beyond range of motion) the catcher, it's easier for me to call it a wild pitch. If she is knocking it down, no matter how poorly it was pitched, you have to take into account she was able to make a play on the ball. And I recognize that this seems a little unfair to the catcher, much like Ozzy Smith getting charged with errors on balls that nobody else would have ever been in a position to field. But that's why errors and fielding percentages are not as important as they used to be.

In the bobble scenario If the 3B bobbles a ball, picks it up and throws to first in time to beat a runner and 1B drops it, I'm scoring that an e-3 despite the initial bobble. If the bobble is on a sharply hit ball that the fielder was lucky to just get a glove on? I'll score that one a hit. If it's just a routine bobble and she throws the ball away after hurrying? 2 errors on 3B. It's all judgment, it's all relative to conditions, and I'm not even close to being perfect on these.

Elk Grove Hurricane said:

.....But that's why errors and fielding percentages are not as important as they used to be....... It's all judgment, it's all relative to conditions.

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Actually, the second sentence above explains exactly why statistics aren’t as useful (and therefore important) as they used to be - ignoring standard score keeping rules and conventions results in numerical ambiguity bordering on anarchy. An appropriate punishment is to manually reproduce the NCAA fastpitch scoring rules once a week until they are applied properly

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Greenmonsters said:

Actually, the second sentence above explains exactly why statistics aren’t as useful (and therefore important) as they used to be - ignoring standard score keeping rules and conventions results in numerical ambiguity bordering on anarchy. An appropriate punishment is to manually reproduce the NCAA fastpitch scoring rules once a week until they are applied properly

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If we were in the NCAA, I would agree. But Bill James and the Sabermetrics were my inspiration for that statement.

Elk Grove Hurricane said:

If we were in the NCAA, I would agree. But Bill James and the Sabermetrics were my inspiration for that statement.

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Yes, butBill Jamesand most sabermetricians are applying their analysis to the sport of baseball. Although there are many commonalities, fastpitch and baseball are played differently. Unless you develop a set of scoring rules and statistics based on those scoring rules that are applied universally throughout the fastpitch game, your statistics are only applicable to the games that you score, and that sample set most likely is too small to have game-wide significance and therefore has no relevance or importance. Recognizing your concerns, I’d use the NCAA fastpitch scorekkeping guidelines because they are the most comprehensive that exist for the FP game and then create and define new statistical criteria that can be evaluated to provide insight into the game. Until the majority of scorekeepers recognize and accept a scoring system, the stats based on that system are useless.

For example, evaluating a catcher’s blocking ability on just PBs or WPs alone isn’t very helpful imo due to the inconsistencies between scorekeepers; however, regardless of scorekeeper objectivity and consistency, one could gain some valuable insight and be able to compare individual catcher’s blocking ability if you calculated PBs plus WPs as a percentage of total pitches in the dirt with runners on base.