I know I know...swinging down is bad....BUT...

[Mrek]

Mrek … I don’t consider those swings to be “swinging down”. I believe what is ridiculous is to ignore the hand paths of the best hitters in the game … and what you see above is representative of that. You can ignore the data if you wish … your choice.

I took video of a college hitter this past weekend with a true “swing down” mechanic. Complete garbage … just horrible … I wouldn’t wish that swing on anyone.

I agree, those hitters are not swinging down, they don't have to get any backspin advantage "due to their size and strength". They are some of the best hitters in the game, however they are known for being power hitters. And a significant contribution to thier power comes from their size and strength. However there are plenty of other great hitters in the game. Why is there no swing showcase on this site for Ichiro and others of a "more average" body type to see how they generate power. Most Women/Girls in Fastpitch cannot expect to swing like Howard or Pujols and get they same (relative) results (HR's vs flyouts to the track at best).

I am not ignoring the data, I want a wider representation of data so it can benefit a wider population of players.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Mrek ... I respect what you are saying. Let's see what we can do in terms of getting various body frames represented.

 

[Mrek]

There is no difference between a baseball swing and a softball swing. At least the good ones.

Want proof? Fire up RVP or any other motion analysis software and put Jeter or Rollins beside Pujols or Babe Ruth or Ted Williams or Jessica Mendoza or Crystl Bustos or any one of the distinguished hitters out there and look at them frame by frame. By the time they get to toe touch and often even during the negative move/coil/etc. every good hitter is nearly indestinguishable in their mechanics from one another on a well hit ball.

I can tell you with certainty that all the models I have in RVP all have somewhere around a 5 degree or so upward barrel path. Male or Female. Doesn't matter.

And here you go. A picture showing Rollins...Looks very similar to A Rod and shows a 6 degree upward barrel path.


My intitial question was more of an exploratory question to see if there is a reason to practice an exagerrated move, even one that goes against conventional thinking, simply because I found a reference to a fix to bat drag which I am struggling mightily with with one of my kids.

What was the result of the swing?

 

[Justanotherdad]

What was the result of the swing?

A good solid hard hit ball.....

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I agree, those hitters are not swinging down, they don't have to get any backspin advantage "due to their size and strength". They are some of the best hitters in the game, however they are known for being power hitters. And a significant contribution to thier power comes from their size and strength. However there are plenty of other great hitters in the game. Why is there no swing showcase on this site for Ichiro and others of a "more average" body type to see how they generate power. Most Women/Girls in Fastpitch cannot expect to swing like Howard or Pujols and get they same (relative) results (HR's vs flyouts to the track at best).

I am not ignoring the data, I want a wider representation of data so it can benefit a wider population of players.

What would a backspin swing look like in your opinion?

In most cases, people describe it to me as level to the ground with the barrel dropping through the point of contact.

 

[Mr T]

Great discussion, just love this forum I learn so much. "I have yet to see someone have bat drag problems with both arms in front of their body." I put that very poorly. What I meant is I've never seen a player properly rotate their hips AND torso, and then end it all off with a back arm that's too far out front. I mean when you think about it it's basically impossible, or if you were to do so it would appear totally clownish.

Fantastic clip Five. That is exactly where I have my 8yr old DD, and that is exactly the type of swing I have been able to get my better 8U players to achieve (OK one girl is actually getting further).

The girl in the clip has an arm swing issue. Her back arm does tilt a little but the front shoulder doesn't go up in an exaggerated manner so I wouldn't call it a bat drag issue per se.

The real problem, like my DD who has a good stance, a good stride, good separation, and even turns the hips and yes leads with the hips but then.... it all stops.

The key for me in this clip is the torso does not turn. She uncoils her hips but from there the urge is to arm the ball. And when the brain says "generate the power with the arms" thats when you get exaggerated front shoulder tilt and the back elbow stars to get too forward.

She does not turn the torso. The back foot does not come up and the follow through is abbreviated. Those are the symptoms of not turning the torso. As I am writing this I would say this is the #1 issue I am having with 8U girls.

Having said all this, it's HARD to get the young ones to do this. Heck it's hard for all of us. Would love to hear ideas to get from the swing Five posted to beyond. What is ring the rag?

@mrek, swinging down doesn't guarantee backspin. It guarantees less contact. You could probably find many more examples of big burly men with Steve Garvey forearms who are able to arm swing, use linear swings, extension swings whatever you want to call them, who can hit the ball hard. I think posters on this forum who use MLB examples of great rotational mechanics are doing a service because women do not have the arm strength to pull off arm swings.

Women have a lower center of gravity. Women can twist their hips WAY better than men. Women are generally WAY more aware of their total bodies and lower bodies in general as I have seen many many times teaching rock climbing. I really get pretty excited when I think about (and see) what women could and are in some cases accomplishing with swings powered by their lower bodies. They can probably one up the men when it comes to rotational hitting. At least that's my theory. (and yeah I realize that as my DDs get older the pitching will get insane and some will need to slap, bunt, take shortened swings in certain situations and counts, etc..)

 

[Shawn]

Swinging down is a good swing thought for most. Many ML hitters taking pose swings will swing down or slot harder then normal.

The higher the back elbow, the more swinging down becomes part of the hitters approach. The hand height might be lower then the back elbow.

Ryan Howard is on record for saying he takes a down and through approach, he also cocks the back elbow much higher then his hands.

The girl is dropping the hands, as opposed to the men showed where the hands don't drop that much. The girl is casting which is quick swing seen in contact hitters. Full extension at contact is common with casting. Ichiro is a caster, good swing to the ball and not through it. As Tony Gywen said he had a good swing to the ball and not through it. Which explains most fastpitch hitters because they swing similar to contact hitters and not a ML power hitter. Fastpitch hitters are like Gywen, Boggs, Ichiro, Carew, etc.

 

[Mr T]

Ichiro is a good counter example, but IMO most MLers use similar mechanics whether they are power hitters or not.

Sportskool

This is Gwynn in his owns words. No mention of swinging down, but numerous mentions of swinging to the ball and through the ball.

I've been there and done that personally worrying about the front shoulder, the back shoulder, the back elbow, swinging down, etc.. For me it's a waste of time (and a fruitless excercise of trying to figure out which hole in the dam to stick one's finger in) until mechanics of the body core are correct.

But obviously there are many schools of thought about hitting, and it's a school we never graduate from.

 

[Shawn]

Gywnn of course now says to hit through the ball because that is something he said he struggled with while playing.

 

[Mr T]

Another crucial point in the Gwynn video is maximizing the area of impact, or the time the bat spends in the plane of the ball. This is impossible to accomplish swinging down on the ball.

All great contact hitters regardless of whether the rest of their mechanics resemble rotational, linear or whatever will maximize AOI and will not swing down on the ball.