I know I know...swinging down is bad....BUT...

[Justanotherdad]

Bat drag is one of the biggest issues I think we all deal with when working with hitters and I have been reading a lot of articles about it. I have some ideas of my own on how I think I can help the kids I work with over come it, but I ran across something yesterday that I think would be good for discussion.

So, if you haven't guessed, I read an article on another hitting site regarding bat drag. The advice given on that site is to practice swinging down while hitting off of a tee. All the old reasons for doing so are there such as it creates back spin, its much easier to reach base on a ground ball because there are more variables involved that could create situations for errors as opposed to only needing on player to make an out on a fly ball, etc etc. However, they gave one reason that I NEVER heard of before as a reason to practice swinging down.

That reasoning is it prevents bat drag and makes your swing faster. The reasoning given is that it is near impossible to have the elbows get ahead of the hands if you start your swing down and to the plane of the pitch.

I am wondering...has anyone ever went against the grain and tried something like this from the old school way of thinking and teaching to over come todays issues like bat drag and still maintain a rotational approach to hitting?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

It is true that intentionally swinging down ‘can’ result in establishing ‘connection’ at swing initiation, and result in what you refer to as a ‘bat drag’ free swing.

That said, does a “swing down” barrel path match up with the Hanson Principle?

Is the answer to “swing down”, or is the answer to learn how to establish connection at swing initiation?

 

[Justanotherdad]

Five, I agree. Thats not what happens in a game.

But as a tool...could it be one answer to learn how to establish connection at swing intiation?

Was watching some videos of of a product. They show the product at an All Star game. In this segment you see various big leaguers walking up to a Tee in the background to take some cuts.

I was shocked to see how many purposefully take a downward swing plane when working off the Tee, yet as we all know, very few Big Leaguers swing down to the ball during live swings. Why is this? What is their purpose of taking practice cuts like this?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Justanotherdad, I haven’t seen the video you are speaking of. It is possible that we are speaking of two different scenarios. Having a goal of “swinging down” can result in avoiding lowering the hands prematurely … mainly because it is difficult to “swing down” if the hands are already “down”, … and hence, assuming the proper use/timing/sequence of the lower body, hips & core, the goal can lead to establishing connection with the hands “on the shelf” (i.e., at ‘launch’).

Yeager uses a cue that combines the potential positive of "swinging down" that you are referring to here, along with a proper barrel path. His cue is "down through the nipple", and by this he wants to see the top hand passing down through the rear nipple.

Probably not a bad idea to look at some video of hand paths …..

Notice how Ryan Howard passes through the "RVP-Connection-Point" position with a "Power-Vee" ....

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

 

[Justanotherdad]

Very very good stuff Five. Thanks.

Any chance you could show the barrel path on the Howard videos to go along with the Hand Path?

I'll try and find the video I saw if I can. It was several days ago when I was looking at soft toss machines.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Justanotherdad ... there's too much blur to do a decent job on Ryan Howard's barrel path. Do take note of the 'real' hand path in accomplished hitters ... they don't prematurely drop prior to swing initiation, which IMO is the positive of the "swing down" approach you commented on.

 

[Justanotherdad]

Doesn't matter. I think I see what you intended for me to see anyway.

I'm going to fire up RVP and have a look at some things now. Thanks for the vid's Five.

 

[Justanotherdad]

Notice the vertical line indicates the outside edge of where A-Rod's feet and hands start in his stance.

The red dots are his barrel path, the green his top hand, the blue his bottom hand. This is his hand and barrel path from toe touch to contact.

Notice his barrel never touches the vertical white line and it really seems to be because of a down and to hand path or through the nipple as you said.

I did the same analysis to my own daughters swing video and her hands drift behind that white line and the barrel dumps outside of it big time before coming back to somewhat correct form at bat lag. Her swing is longer than it needs to be and now I see her hand path is not optimal.

I never noticed this before. Thanks for the insightful discussion Five.

 

[tom.guerry]

bat drag as commonly defined here was first emphasized by Paul Nyman at setpro based on observations by a coach/enthusiast in Evergreen Co named Troy Slinkard (the "batman of Evergreen" one of his most famous students being Kuozmanoff) who studied video carefully looking for consistent differences between high and low level swings.

So letting the back elbow get ahead of the hands became a video landmark for "bat drag", synonomous with "bat drag" in some people's minds, although it is somewhat more complcated than that.

One of Nyman's cues for the cure became "swing down" and "kill some bugs"

you have to have an accurate total swing perspective and distinguish between feel and real or feel vs fact (but "fact" is often inadequate 2 D reality).

and remember that "feel" is much more important than 2D video reality and at least as important as 3 and 4d (time and space) reality