- Sep 10, 2013
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How Critical is Brush
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If she's truly pulling her arms down into an adduction, brushing will become automatic. Its a no teach. Be aware of ball orientation at 9:00 into release. If she rotates her hand to behind the ball too early, the arm will start to pull away from the ribs. (this kills speed, spin and consistency)
- Feb 7, 2013
- 3,188
- 48
Great, I look forward to hearing more
BTW, the reason I ask is when watching slow motion video of DD, she seems to get good "bicep brush" but little or no forearm brush and I am ultimately wondering is this will keep her from reaching her velocity, spin, and control potential.
Great, I look forward to hearing more
BTW, the reason I ask is when watching slow motion video of DD, she seems to get good "bicep brush" but little or no forearm brush and I am ultimately wondering is this will keep her from reaching her velocity, spin, and control potential.
There are always exceptions, but yes the lack of forearm Brush will reduce the chance of her performing to a high level.
I agree for the most part. However, I have had success teaching brush contact (or brush interference) as part of the discussion about adduction and ball/hand orientation at 9:00 into release.
javasource
6-4-3 = 2
Here's another long one... still not through that post!
This is a good question, Rick. I guess I’ve never really stepped back and looked at the evolution of how I teach/taught that pitch until now! Dang you made me think on this one for a solid part of my day today. Here’s a little history:
The first thing I did was learn to throw it. Then I went about instruction. The WORST mistake I made was probably the best mistake… I read everything, bought everything, talked to a million people, and left those experiences much more confused and off-topic than I started. I ended up with 7-8 different gadgets.
The students didn’t know any better at first. They were stoked to see all the toys that I had for them to play with. I remember one clinic in particular… I was teaching a kid to throw a curve… and she ended up staying into my next clinic to get some extra practice time in at the field. The next clinic arrived… a girl that I started working on the rise with. She ran to the bag… grabbed the double-ball, the hockey puck (spinner)… and a few other gadgets that I’m way too embarrassed to even mention. The curve girl watched this in awe… I’m assuming that she was pissed, cause she said, “Coach, how come you don’t have anything like that for a curve”. I know this as an exact quote… because a week later, the rise girl’s dad gave me the video tape from that session… and I watched it a few days later.
My answer was even worse… “the rise is the most difficult pitch to learn.” So… as I sat there a week or so later… the only notes I took after watching a 40-minute cassette tape were: “Get tools for the curve.” Instead of actually paying attention to the video… I just sat there staring off into space… half the time thinking of gadgets for a curve… the final half asking myself, “Why and the hell do I need all that crap for a rise?” Truth is, I had no answers… other than those gadgets were masking how uncomfortable I was with instructing it. For every other pitch… I required a ball, a glove, and a catcher…. But for some reason… I had a whole bag of riseball toys.
The funny thing… is that the girl throwing a curve had some significant back posture, never really went palm-up (but cupped her fingers), and had incredible leg drive to boot… so she had zero issues relaxing the rear knee. She was throwing a rise all along. I know it angers some on this board, but her ‘crise’ was pretty good. In drill positions, she was on a 5-11 axis… almost identical to that slomo video you posted of Sarah.
So… there I was trying to fix a curve with one girl… all the while trying to teach the rise with another... The whole time... I had been teaching kids to throw a rise as a curve. So, it was in another players ‘error’ , or more accurately, my error… that I found the answer to each of those issues. I flat out asked the curve girl... what she was doing... and I credit her, to this day... for helping me overcome the absolutely ridiculous preconceived notion on the 'impossible rise'.
So, to FINALLY answer your question… every throw a girl makes with a rise... is forward… and compliments the drill. 84 drill (lock-it in) is from 10-15, 93 drill (9 o’clock) is from 2/3 distance, and show-it is near full distance. I use 84 to isolate the forearm/wrist articulation, 93 to teach them to unlock it... and Show-it to get them up to speed. All the while, I add a couple of other leg drills in there... to make sure the body is getting into the right posture... as the rise is AS MUCH POSTURE, AS IT IS SPIN. I should also note that I AM NOT a long-toss advocate… but for this pitch, I do require kids to throw to the next level… meaning if they are throwing 40… they throw it from 43… and if they are 43, they throw-it from 46. Makes teaching a level-2 (tier 2) rise much easier.
One other thing on this... it's not like learning the drop is easy... or the curve... or the change-up... hell... even a fastball ain't easy. But, the rise is no more difficult - and I firmly believe that if it is... then perhaps the instruction one uses is more the issue, than the pitch. This was my experience at least. I can teach a girl to throw a curve, rise, drop, change, etc... in one lesson... but that does not mean that it's game ready. So, I ask people that are struggling with the rise... if they struggle with teaching the curve. If they say no, then I recommend they take a hard look at the method they are using. Throwing a riseball does NOT require that you throw 55+... although speeds above this - tend to make it much more effective.
The only time it takes a little while... is when I get an established pitcher that is not familiar with how I teach regular mechanics. Without this... it can be a little more time-intensive to get them up to speed on 'Mike-speak'... but older kids with desire and motivation... overcome this in a couple of sessions.
Already commented on this... but for those of you working with other kids: At the end of a session... have them loosen up their legs with some walk-throughs... have them work on some reciprocal adduction.... and once they are all juiced-up... have them finish their practice with the 10-15 of the hardest throws they've ever made. No mechanical focus... just insanity. Every pitch is harder than the last. Motivate them after every one... get all worked up, if necessary. After they throw those 10... ask them how they feel... and ask them if they've ever felt that way in a game after throwing 10 pitches.
This is a super important exercise to perform... as it will define the word "effort"... and give them a sensation to match every time they pick up a ball. Practicing should NOT be routine... should NOT be easy, and should NOT be too comfortable an environment. Without "effort" kids top out... we all know that story.
I want kids to increase all impulse speeds... because I know that the greater the impulse speed, the faster the muscle can fire. Yet another reason I do not keep a kid at a slow speed, longer than necessary. Impulse training is something I've only lightly covered in the DM sticky... but this subject is so important. Hopefully can make the time to expand on this in the future.
More soon... thanks so much, Rick - for this conversation, and all you do for this sport.
This is a good question, Rick. I guess I’ve never really stepped back and looked at the evolution of how I teach/taught that pitch until now! Dang you made me think on this one for a solid part of my day today. Here’s a little history:
The first thing I did was learn to throw it. Then I went about instruction. The WORST mistake I made was probably the best mistake… I read everything, bought everything, talked to a million people, and left those experiences much more confused and off-topic than I started. I ended up with 7-8 different gadgets.
The students didn’t know any better at first. They were stoked to see all the toys that I had for them to play with. I remember one clinic in particular… I was teaching a kid to throw a curve… and she ended up staying into my next clinic to get some extra practice time in at the field. The next clinic arrived… a girl that I started working on the rise with. She ran to the bag… grabbed the double-ball, the hockey puck (spinner)… and a few other gadgets that I’m way too embarrassed to even mention. The curve girl watched this in awe… I’m assuming that she was pissed, cause she said, “Coach, how come you don’t have anything like that for a curve”. I know this as an exact quote… because a week later, the rise girl’s dad gave me the video tape from that session… and I watched it a few days later.
My answer was even worse… “the rise is the most difficult pitch to learn.” So… as I sat there a week or so later… the only notes I took after watching a 40-minute cassette tape were: “Get tools for the curve.” Instead of actually paying attention to the video… I just sat there staring off into space… half the time thinking of gadgets for a curve… the final half asking myself, “Why and the hell do I need all that crap for a rise?” Truth is, I had no answers… other than those gadgets were masking how uncomfortable I was with instructing it. For every other pitch… I required a ball, a glove, and a catcher…. But for some reason… I had a whole bag of riseball toys.
The funny thing… is that the girl throwing a curve had some significant back posture, never really went palm-up (but cupped her fingers), and had incredible leg drive to boot… so she had zero issues relaxing the rear knee. She was throwing a rise all along. I know it angers some on this board, but her ‘crise’ was pretty good. In drill positions, she was on a 5-11 axis… almost identical to that slomo video you posted of Sarah.
So… there I was trying to fix a curve with one girl… all the while trying to teach the rise with another... The whole time... I had been teaching kids to throw a rise as a curve. So, it was in another players ‘error’ , or more accurately, my error… that I found the answer to each of those issues. I flat out asked the curve girl... what she was doing... and I credit her, to this day... for helping me overcome the absolutely ridiculous preconceived notion on the 'impossible rise'.
So, to FINALLY answer your question… every throw a girl makes with a rise... is forward… and compliments the drill. 84 drill (lock-it in) is from 10-15, 93 drill (9 o’clock) is from 2/3 distance, and show-it is near full distance. I use 84 to isolate the forearm/wrist articulation, 93 to teach them to unlock it... and Show-it to get them up to speed. All the while, I add a couple of other leg drills in there... to make sure the body is getting into the right posture... as the rise is AS MUCH POSTURE, AS IT IS SPIN. I should also note that I AM NOT a long-toss advocate… but for this pitch, I do require kids to throw to the next level… meaning if they are throwing 40… they throw it from 43… and if they are 43, they throw-it from 46. Makes teaching a level-2 (tier 2) rise much easier.
One other thing on this... it's not like learning the drop is easy... or the curve... or the change-up... hell... even a fastball ain't easy. But, the rise is no more difficult - and I firmly believe that if it is... then perhaps the instruction one uses is more the issue, than the pitch. This was my experience at least. I can teach a girl to throw a curve, rise, drop, change, etc... in one lesson... but that does not mean that it's game ready. So, I ask people that are struggling with the rise... if they struggle with teaching the curve. If they say no, then I recommend they take a hard look at the method they are using. Throwing a riseball does NOT require that you throw 55+... although speeds above this - tend to make it much more effective.
The only time it takes a little while... is when I get an established pitcher that is not familiar with how I teach regular mechanics. Without this... it can be a little more time-intensive to get them up to speed on 'Mike-speak'... but older kids with desire and motivation... overcome this in a couple of sessions.
Already commented on this... but for those of you working with other kids: At the end of a session... have them loosen up their legs with some walk-throughs... have them work on some reciprocal adduction.... and once they are all juiced-up... have them finish their practice with the 10-15 of the hardest throws they've ever made. No mechanical focus... just insanity. Every pitch is harder than the last. Motivate them after every one... get all worked up, if necessary. After they throw those 10... ask them how they feel... and ask them if they've ever felt that way in a game after throwing 10 pitches.
This is a super important exercise to perform... as it will define the word "effort"... and give them a sensation to match every time they pick up a ball. Practicing should NOT be routine... should NOT be easy, and should NOT be too comfortable an environment. Without "effort" kids top out... we all know that story.
I want kids to increase all impulse speeds... because I know that the greater the impulse speed, the faster the muscle can fire. Yet another reason I do not keep a kid at a slow speed, longer than necessary. Impulse training is something I've only lightly covered in the DM sticky... but this subject is so important. Hopefully can make the time to expand on this in the future.
More soon... thanks so much, Rick - for this conversation, and all you do for this sport.
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Java, based on my interpretation of your above post, you are saying that the rise ball isn't any more difficult to learn than any other pitch? I have had many people tell me the rise is the last pitch to learn and my response has always been....."why?" I never get much of an answer. Now I'm not saying the rise is or isn't the last pitch to learn, I think that depends on the kid. I am saying we shouldn't limit a kid to this pitch or that pitch based on the instructors opinion. I know this is a little off topic but thought it followed your line of thought. Appreciate the useful insight.
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javasource
6-4-3 = 2
That's what I'm sayin'.... especially for a DFP kid. They know all this stuff in and out... providing their parents aren't afraid of using big words.
To Rick's point... learning to go low with the drop, then go high with a rise, can be like split personalities... they are difficult to manage - but one person can have them both. This message was approved by my wife...
JJsqueeze
Dad, Husband....legend
I could go back and thank a bunch of the posts in this thread, but I'm not gonna. I will just say that I can't believe this is free. At least a couple of points made by Java and Rick have already helped my DD out. The information is just so damn rich that instead of me dismissing what I either disagree with as a first reaction-"clicking??" or don't quite understand why it bears mentioning-"lack of hip flexion" I find myself actually trying it since I respect the source so much. I looked into the "tag training" after Rick posted about it and got the basics and tried it, it was great, a big relief not having to constantly verbalize things. And since the girls have to figure it out on their own, the feels they develop stick a little better, we will play around with it more to see how to best use it. We do use a guiro instead however, because we value artistry in the JJ house and I like to get my latin groove on during practice. thanks again boys...
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