FiveFrameSwing
Banned
WillyT ... good input right there. A hitter that can not detect early, both the 'location' and 'speed' of a pitch, is at a significant disadvantage.
In a mood, I can't take it anymore... and it started with backdoor curve.
- Thread starter Hillhouse
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- Feb 7, 2013
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Let me be devils advocate for a minute. Having just watched recordings of the NPF championship games where two of the best women's professional pitchers, Monica Abbott and Cat Osterman, were facing each other. Both were very effective but two totally different types of pitchers.
Monica throws HARD, low to mid 70's, mostly throwing bullet spin fastballs, to all locations, with an occasional changeup. Not much vertical movement on any pitch.
Cat has above average speed (low to mid 60's) but is a master at spins. She throws a great drop ball, curve, riseball (with mostly good backspin 1/7, 2/8 as seen by the pitcher, remember she is a lefty), and changeup. She mixes speeds well and is also very accurate.
Some of the things both these pitchers have in common is they are tall, lefties, with long arms and fingers, and a very competitive.
The bottom line is that there is more than one particular way to be an effective pitcher, and 99% of the pitchers in travel ball / high school will never pitch professionally but can be very good pitchers in high school and even college with many different pitches and styles.
Monica throws HARD, low to mid 70's, mostly throwing bullet spin fastballs, to all locations, with an occasional changeup. Not much vertical movement on any pitch.
Cat has above average speed (low to mid 60's) but is a master at spins. She throws a great drop ball, curve, riseball (with mostly good backspin 1/7, 2/8 as seen by the pitcher, remember she is a lefty), and changeup. She mixes speeds well and is also very accurate.
Some of the things both these pitchers have in common is they are tall, lefties, with long arms and fingers, and a very competitive.
The bottom line is that there is more than one particular way to be an effective pitcher, and 99% of the pitchers in travel ball / high school will never pitch professionally but can be very good pitchers in high school and even college with many different pitches and styles.
JJsqueeze
Dad, Husband....legend
I can't argue with Bill, his information on YouTube was what got me looking into pitching the "correct" way in the first place when my kid first expressed an interest in pitching, so I owe him a debt. But I take issue with his stance on the little blue pill. Nothing wrong with a little kick start.
But I digress again.
Two things. I agree with the general philosophy of the holy trinity of rise/drop/change. But adding in a curve seems like a good idea. MLB pitchers throw sliders and cutters, and fastballs with cut/slide action but not much up/down movement and they are effective. Even as a "mix it up" pitch to give a different look it can make sense. I don't believe in the 8 pitch pitcher, but 4 pitch pitchers seem reasonable.
As for Cat, I still have not seen her throw a change up. If anyone has video I would love to see it. As far as I am concerned she is drop/rise/curve.
But I digress again.
Two things. I agree with the general philosophy of the holy trinity of rise/drop/change. But adding in a curve seems like a good idea. MLB pitchers throw sliders and cutters, and fastballs with cut/slide action but not much up/down movement and they are effective. Even as a "mix it up" pitch to give a different look it can make sense. I don't believe in the 8 pitch pitcher, but 4 pitch pitchers seem reasonable.
As for Cat, I still have not seen her throw a change up. If anyone has video I would love to see it. As far as I am concerned she is drop/rise/curve.
Definitely framing this...
- Feb 7, 2013
- 3,188
- 48
Regarding Cat's changeup, probably more accurate to call it an off-speed drop, around high 50's.
FWIW, Meg Langenfeld (UCLA/Team USA) pitcher who was MOP (most ouststanding player) in 2010 WCWS threw 80% screwballs in the post season. It was her best pitch.
Maybe at the men's elite professional level you can't throw screwballs and curves/drop curves but they seem to be pretty effective at the women's level. More of a question than a statement.
FWIW, Meg Langenfeld (UCLA/Team USA) pitcher who was MOP (most ouststanding player) in 2010 WCWS threw 80% screwballs in the post season. It was her best pitch.
Maybe at the men's elite professional level you can't throw screwballs and curves/drop curves but they seem to be pretty effective at the women's level. More of a question than a statement.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
IMO, an angled drop-ball, thrown to the inside portion of the plate, is tougher to hit than a non-angled drop-ball thrown to the inside portion of the plate. Why? Because the inclusion of the angle brings in a variable that further challenges a hitter to correctly identify pitch location early in their swing.
You’ll see such pitches being effectively thrown at the WCWS.
I recall a UCLA pitcher that was extremely good at this a few years back. I recall a battle at the WCWS in which she threw this pitch again-and-again against a batter … and the batter repeatedly fouled it off … it was a good battle, and got to the point that I didn’t think the pitcher was going to throw anything else to this batter but her angled pitch. Then, after several such inside/angled pitches, she threw a ball outside … and it was jacked, ending a heck of a battle between the pitcher & batter.
Of course you can’t draw a conclusion from one at-bat. That said … there are numerous pitchers throwing angled drop-balls, and angled rise-balls, that are effective. IMO the inclusion of the angle plays on a hitters need to accurately predict inside/outside location early in their swing.
I’m not quite getting the issue folks have with the rise-balls and drop-balls being thrown at an angle. Some explanation would be appreciated.
***I moved the discussion about inside-outside swings to the practical hitting forum***
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Sluggers ... IMO you moved some important information out of this thread. The better one understands the importance of the 'inside-out' swing, and how a hitter needs to correctly establish this early in their swing, the better it can be appreciated that curve-balls (including pseudo curve-balls) and screw-balls (including pseudo screw-balls) are effective pitches.
Being a bucket mom that has spent 1000s of hours researching, learning, experimenting (yes I try to throw pitches myself) and catching all for DDs love of pitching.......I completely appreciate this so very much!!!!
DDs PC is from the multiple pitch camp. But what's worse is there is too much mechanic variation between pitches. She's 10 and has been exposed to throwing 6 pitches. That's ridiculous. When she and I work.... We focus on three.
It is just very hard to find a quality PC that doesn't teach H/E or that believes in this way of thinking. Bottom line - thank you for the post. It reaffirms the direction we want to go in.
DDs PC is from the multiple pitch camp. But what's worse is there is too much mechanic variation between pitches. She's 10 and has been exposed to throwing 6 pitches. That's ridiculous. When she and I work.... We focus on three.
It is just very hard to find a quality PC that doesn't teach H/E or that believes in this way of thinking. Bottom line - thank you for the post. It reaffirms the direction we want to go in.
Greenmonsters
Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
It was the right move and wasn't contributing to this thread (and really wasn't that important). FWIW, very good perspective offered in this thread by Hillhouse, the only thing I take exception to is the concept that there is a "natural" bat path.
