Turnover drop?

[FiveFrameSwing]

JJ, there was no schooling of Sluggers. Sluggers attempted to shorten a discussion through intimidation tactics, and as I initially responded to him, the intimidation tactics wouldn't work. What I find works better is a candid technical discussion. I personally don't find it necessary to attack an individual to do that. I deal with a lot of kids ..... the one's that display such bully tendencies are often insecure and/or feel a need for attention. Personally I find it best not to fold when presented with such intimidation tactics ... it only encourages more of the bad behavior.

 

[javasource]

FFS...you have no clue what you are talking about.

Yes, people throw a fastball with down spin. However, a drop ball with 2x or 3x as much spin as the fastball, creating a radically different fly path for the ball.

IMO, this conversation was doomed at this point. Seems more like a response to the person, than the post.

Fingers/hand up... versus fingers/hand over is turning into semantics... and the second loses ground to the fact that spinning a ball down requires the fingers to move up the ball. So, perhaps we ought to take a hard looknat getting them under the ball.... ?

If I want my hand to violently turn, I need to put it in a position to freely do so... not forcefully. Keeping the hand in tight is... semantically... an action with the hand ... as opposed to an action that results from the position of the arm. Is the "turnover" a reflex of a stretched muscle... or is it a tightned motion of the hand... and which creates better spin? Ever notice how good turnover pitchers have their elbow buried in their rib cage... and what this resulted from? Or is it simply keeping their hand tight/ridgid... I don't buy that.

Yes... I'm concerned with spin rates... but none of the girls that I work with that throw +/- 20rps are throwing a drop version at 40 or 60rps.

I'm not siding with any of you here... but I get the feeling that Five is being lambasted for his participation in the hitting forums. I've watched/read his stuff over the last 7 or 8 years on this site and others (ok, maybe not the last year)... and although the dude can get a little campy at times, he usually works out the stuff... but it takes more than any of you are dishing out in this thread to do so.

IMO, getting over the ball is a decent cue... but if a pitcher I'm working with can't get up the ball... and know how... what good is getting over it? JJ has a nice cue from Balswick... getting the thumb forward... which works marvelously for those that have had palm-up fb instruction.

Anyway... I find it amazing that a 7-page diatribe ensues over a legitimate question from the OP... and everyone is stuck on hand gyrations. Again, not defending Five... he can fight his own battles. But is this the only piece you guys find worth discussing? The OP's DD can gyrate her hand until the cow's come home... hell, she can practice while listening to Willy and the Hand Jive... but that will mean absolutely nothing to a kid whose posture is 10+ degrees behind vertical. Getting your hand over the ball for a drop... is useless without getting your body/posture in the right position to do so. This is where throwing it should come before teaching it... and seldom do I take that stance.

 

[cbullard]

Thanks everyone for the discussion. So, should be over her front leg more?

 

[abbygale]

Throwing downhill has always worked for mine. That, and always starting from the ground up.

 

[PEPPERS]

Which do you guys prefer the turnover drop or the peel drop and why?

IMO I like the peel drop the main reason is it is easier on the wrist action and the movement of the pitch with the peel drop is really good when thrown correctly.

We seem to see very few pitchers in our area use the turnover drop.

 

[riseball]

Peel is easier to throw and the motion is more consistent with that of other pitchers. My DD throws both a 2 seam FB and a peel so the motion is the same yet the ball will move in, out, or down. The only pitch where her motion (release) is slightly different is her rise. However, if you throw can a turnover and can really own it is a great pitch.

 

[Ball Game]

Yep...her wrist is flying out. It is more about keeping the wrist down and close to the body.

Here is Osterman throwing a drop:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/YfCbmkM47qg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

here is a little trick for you and her:

She shouldn't forget the way her hand is finishing. She is probably getting a curve drop spin, which is a nice pitch to go with the full fledged drop she'll develop.

She can develop feel for the movement of her arm and hand, and learn to create different pitches other than simply a drop and a curve drop.


FFS:

I understand what you are saying, but again, you don't understand pitching.

Cat says she doesnt throw that pitch. If that's a peel I don't see her pulling up in the ball as she explains here?

 

[riseball]

There is no need to pull up on a peel. Cat would not be the first pitcher to explain how she thinks she pitches versus how she actually pitches.

 

[Greenmonsters]

....Cat would not be the first FP or baseball player to explain how they think they pitch/hit versus how they actually pitch/hit.

Fixed and made it universal

 

[okie]

I give my wife shirt all of the time for watching those "Real Housewives of (insert location here)" because all those women do for the entire show is bitch, argue and bitch some more, most of the time over meaningless crap. I guess its kind of hypocritical considering how many years i've spent on this site when most of the time its the same thing. I heard Hillhouse say once that "some things are absolute, but most of the things we harp on are not" and yet, on this site we spend most of the time arguing them.

One thing i've learned from being a lurker on this site for years and being involved in this game for a very long time is that, nothing is absolute! Over the past couple of years i have watched five 8 year old girls start pitching and turn into five very good 10 year old pitchers. Three have been instructed from a straight up HE pitching coach, one has been coached by her dad via every video BH has online or for sale and the other has been coached straight from this website. Personally, my DD has learned from spending countless hours in the IR/Drive Mechanics threads and i 100% believe that is the best way to pitch. With that said, as the HC, i attend all of my pitchers private lessons so i know what they are being taught and can further that instruction in our own practices and games. My point is, while i strongly believe in "my way" of pitching, i also see, acknowledge and accept that its not the only way.

Just like the good ol linear versus rotational hitting debate that will never go away, the reality and truth is, whats "right" or "wrong" is almost always very subjective and can change from person to perosn. I love this site and havent said anything but FFS! I just wish more focus was put on informing bucket dads/moms rather than "being right" or proving someone "wrong".