Topspin Vs Bulletspin, Which is Faster?

[Doug Romrell]

Interesting discussion concerning energy transfer. I wonder if the size of the lever has an impact. Or more the size in relationship to the process.

I would say, "YES," size of the lever AND WHERE THAT LEVER IS IN THE CHAIN.

I think most people would agree that the elbow does add speed to the pitch....

Would anyone disagree that the joint that connects the lower arm to the upper arm (the elbow) makes the whipping action of the lower arm (a relatively long lever) possible. And, given that relatively long lever is near the end of the chain, that lever probably adds more to speed than any other lever. The K drill and how fast you can throw by just using it comes to mind.

Comparatively the wrist and fingers range of individual movement is much smaller in the process. So maybe any speed that is added is on the degree of tenths of mph instead of something measurable.

I agree that comparatively the wrists and fingers range of movement is much smaller, BUT they are at the end of the chain, thus they don't have to be as large/long to add speed, not in terms of only a few tenths of MPH, but more than that.

As I see it, wrist and finger flexion is vital in generating maximum speed in the internal rotation release. I think good wrist and finger speed due to great wrist and finger flexion through the release phase is vastly under-appreciated. The wrist and finger action is applied through the largest arc of motion in the overall pitching motion. And you don't think this wrist and finger action adds much to speed????

 

[Doug Romrell]

I would go further, and leave the teaching of pitchers other than your own kids, to the former or current pitchers.

OILF... I thought we all knew that being or having been a pitcher isn't a sufficient condition to be a good pitching instructor. Futher, having not been a pitcher doesn't necessarily mean you can't be a good pitching instructor. Hasn't there been plenty of evidence of this through the years presented right here on this site???

 

[ArmWhip]

When I use the fishing rod analogy I am saying that the wrist-hand-fingers are the rod and the ball is the line-lure. The wrist-hand-fingers are loaded by the forward thrusting action of the arm and unload that energy into the pitch, that is their sole contribution. But this a very very small addition to the speed of a pitch, if it exists at all. If you believe that the wrist is a hinge and the hand is a lever then you should have your students doing wrist snaps as the HE teachers recommend. The hinge-lever idea only works when the palm faces forward at release, what about a bullet spin pitch? Several years ago in a thread that dealt with this issue I believe it was Rick Pauly who said that he had gunned a couple of his better pitchers with a bowling brace on their wrist and they only lost a couple of MPH and he had the feeling that if they got used to it the drop off would be negligible.

 

[BoardMember]

I'm sure the last thing you guys want to see is video evidence of bullet spin from a high level pitcher..........It just kills the party I know.........

I understand Rick and Bill's assertion that pitchers shouldn't be taught bullet spin as a "pitch" in an arsenal.........However.......It's my opinion that bullet spin is a RESULT of high level mechanics left to "do what they do"........Without manipulation of lace direction for directed movement up/down/left/right.........

Bullet spin occurs when the ball is released mid-snap or mid-I/R as the thumb comes off the ball half way through the I/R delivery, and the fingers continue under and through release..........

It is my educated opinion that IF you are training PROPER whip........Void of insistance that the ball spin 6-12 during the whip.......Bullet spin can/will be the result more often then not..........

It's great to say "I don't teach bullet spin".......By simply insisting on 6-12 rotation during the whipping process.......But I question that insistence during the early training process of throwing a ball underhand.......I do NOT insist on 6-12 rotation until I know that proper mechanics are in place..........Then it's simply a matter of manipulation to 6-12..........

You're kidding yourself if you think "unchecked" manipulation WITH I/R doesn't result in some level of "bullet spin" at the highest levels.......

Pay close attention to the black line........The thumb is directly on it......And it's facing away from the body......And it never moves as the thumb comes off the ball........This is a bullet spin pitch from Sarah Pauley........When she isn't throwing rise/drop/curve/change..........

That spin doesn't have to be taught........Because it is a RESULT of a high level whipping motion........WITHOUT manipulation...........

 

[FP26]

As I see it, wrist and finger flexion is vital in generating maximum speed in the internal rotation release. I think good wrist and finger speed due to great wrist and finger flexion through the release phase is vastly under-appreciated. The wrist and finger action is applied through the largest arc of motion in the overall pitching motion. And you don't think this wrist and finger action adds much to speed????

You may very well be correct on this. As a layman, I am trying to think through the process myself. What I am trying to determine now is how an off speed (change up) pitch works in comparison to a fastball? What aspects of the pitching motion change in order to make the ball go slower? When DD was taught her first change up (circle change) she was taught to "push" the ball and release with her palm facing the catcher and fingers pointed toward the ground (thumb towards third base). Was the pitch slower because there was no additional whip from the fingers/wrist? Was the pitch slower because of the reduced amount of movement at the elbow? Or a combination of the two? In addition, when other pitches are thrown with similar mechanics to the fastball, what aspect of the chain causes the speed difference? If we can determine what actions do or do not occur in order to slow the pitch down, maybe that would answer what creates that speed to begin with... Very interesting topic!!

NOTE: Her first PC was H/E. We have long since changed how she throws a change up. Just thought I would add that for clarification.

 

[Doug Romrell]

Of course the lower arm is a huge accelerator, but due to the wrist, the fingers are an accelerator at the end of the lower arm accelerator. I think this has great potential in terms of adding speed to an already fast speed generated by the lower arm (whip).

 

[Hillhouse]

It is my educated opinion that IF you are training PROPER whip........Void of insistance that the ball spin 6-12 during the whip.......Bullet spin can/will be the result more often then not..........

It's great to say "I don't teach bullet spin".......By simply insisting on 6-12 rotation during the whipping process.......But I question that insistence during the early training process of throwing a ball underhand.......I do NOT insist on 6-12 rotation until I know that proper mechanics are in place..........Then it's simply a matter of manipulation to 6-12..........

I guess this is where you and i have a difference of opinion. I don't know Sarah, I don't know what's she's throwing in this clip or what she's demonstrating. And as blasphemous as it is to have any thing to say about a "high level pitcher" I would say that if she whipped her elbow MORE, the bullet spin would disappear. Personally, I teach 6/12 rotation along with the mechanics, not separately because I believe they go hand in hand. I have had many students who had bullet spin that lost it when they were instructed to whip or snap their elbow harder at the release. When done, the wrist and the fingers follow naturally. I don't know how that effects IR but it's what do in my lessons and what I do personally.

I realize there are people who will say "how can one be critical of Sarah Pauly, she's one of the best!!" And I agree with those people, she is one of the best. But even the best sometimes do things they shouldn't. Often, they are good DESPITE what they do, not because of it. There's a lot of examples of this. I know my glove hand doesn't stay directly on top of my leg, and it was pointed out the other day. And God forbid anyone do anything "wrong" with their feet!!!

Again though, I'm saying this blind because I don't know what Sarah is doing here. And it may just be a difference of opinion but I get pitchers to exaggerate their elbow whip and it usually straightens bullet spin out... this is assuming that there isn't another factor in why the bullet spin occurs.

Bill

 

[Jojo]

Of course they (the fingers) allow energy to transfer to the ball.

Imagine, for the sake of discussion, the pitcher had her wrist and the joints of her fingers pinned (like by an orthopedic surgeon), as if the fingers are just a solid extension of her forearm bones. Would the end of those finger tips be traveling the same speed (being completely inflexible) in the arm-whip action of the pitching arm as would be the case with the normal flexible fingers and wrist? Would the pinned wrist and finger joints transfer anywhere near as much energy in the pitch as the flexible fingers and wrist arm-whip pitch?

I don't see the wrist and fingers as ONLY being a mechanism for transferring energy from up the chain. I see them as adding to the already significant energy further up the chain, particularly the forearm whip action (that includes the slowing of the upper arm going into release).

Okay for the sake of discussion let's go even further to the actual muscles in the hand that allow the fingers to impart push and spin.

My DD's entire pitching career was one injury after another, her senior year she was in a collision at 3rd base. She was holding the ball and were still not sure how it happened but the pinky finger got crushed. This ended her senior year and was just a few weeks after verbal signing.
Her pinky had to be put back together with pins and THIS time we made sure she saw a orthopedics sports specialist to do the surgery and she got lots of physical therapy.

But anyway what her therapist told us is even though the pinky seems irrelevant to the pitch, it plays a large part.
He said the pinky is attached to the largest muscle in the hand. He said imagine yourself doing a rope climb in gym class. Now imagine yourself doing that same rope climb but holding out your pinkies and not using them.

Without that muscle your hand loses a lot of strength.

I know in her therapies we focused on a ton of hand strength exercises to get her ready by fall to pitch for her university.

 

[BoardMember]

"I have had many students who had bullet spin that lost it when they were instructed to whip or snap their elbow harder at the release. When done, the wrist and the fingers follow naturally. I don't know how that effects IR but it's what do in my lessons and what I do personally."

Bill.......Please........If you have a student that comes to you with bullet spin.......Then they already have a pretty good idea how to throw a softball underhand with whip........And then, as YOU say.......All you have to do is manipulate part of the delivery (elbow snap) to create 6/12 rotation......

I think that's exactly what I said........Once someone knows how to throw underhand correctly with whip........I can show her how to manipulate the spin to 6/12 EASILY........

So again.....I don't think we "differ" in this regard...........Except for exactly what I said, that you verified.........

You (and others) teach pitchers that whip MUST INCLUDE 6/12 rotation........IMO that interferes with the basic learning curve on how to "whip the ball" MOST efficiently.........Because as you said........Turning bullet spin into 6-12 is easy.........

That's where I see we differ............I teach, or make sure my students can, drive the car straight and fast before I teach them to "turn corners".........Because once they have control of the car........It's simply a matter of turning the steering wheel..........So to speak.......

That way I get the best of both worlds IMO........Speed and Movement........

That's just how I've done it for 30+ years........And I've had TONS of success with that method.......

Your method is fine also..........It just doesn't work for what I'm trying to accomplish, the way I accomplish it.........IOW.......I strive for the complete package just a little different then you do........

Because in my opinion..........SPEED is much harder to teach then movement.......And I have yet to have anyone prove me wrong in that regard..........

Doesn't make me right for your method.......And you are certainly not right for mine.........

No harm.......No foul........

Travel safe buddy.........

P.S. As far as Sarah "doing somthing wrong"........I don't think she is.........She's just throwing an un-manipulated fastball with NO BATTER to fool, the way I believe it should happen........

 

[Doug Romrell]

Bill and Boardmember, Please keep with the dialog. It's very educational, and something we seldom see--a discussion between you two. It would be even better if Pauly, Javasource, and other experts would also chime in.