What to do when the Catcher won't cooperate?

[JAD]

JAD, I respect you're opinion on this but you're trying to compare apples to oranges. College coaches' livelihoods, no matter the level of play, depend upon the success of the program. I too have seen bad college pitch calling from the dugout. Usually, these college coaches and their staff has at most, a couple of seasons since they invariably lose a majority of their games. Softball has now become, for the most part, a revenue generating sport for those colleges that have a successful program and have developed some success. Depending upon the conference, division and with internet access, many parents, who never had access to watching their DD play college ball out of town, or even in town, can now watch for a "small" subscriber fee to a website no matter the level of play. Dont get me wrong, I don't believe it will ever reach the revenue generation of football but it still beats the field hockey and lacrosse ratings.

By the same token, any catcher learning their craft, including calling pitches, is never a bad thing. Many times, they can call a better game than the coaches simply because they see things the coaches missed since they are "right there" behind the batter. Truly good catchers, if not great catchers can see swing flaws, stances, the true strike zone, and if they are a good/great catcher, they can expand it, etc. Etc.

I am not an expert on the subject, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express one time last year, and I bet you can count the number of college softball teams operating in the black on one hand....

Never said catchers should not learn how to call a game, just pointed out that the number of them that do it in college can probably be counted on the other hand from the reference above.

The best way to learn how to call a pitcher is to work with the pitcher for an extended period of time to learn the strengths and weaknesses. In Obbay's original post he stated that his DD was picking up and the catcher had probably NEVER caught for her before, yet she acted like a "know it all"....which is why I felt compelled added my $0.02!

 

[quincy]

But you still added 2 cents

 

[NVfishing]

Being comfortable with a catcher is important for the success of a pitcher. DD had a similar situation where her and catcher weren't on the same page and it didn't work out so well.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Most college coaches call pitches from the dugout, so not sure why TB catchers, and their parents, think they should do it....although I have seen some crappy pitch calling by coaches too.

JAD - I can only conclude that your DD has never had the opportunity to develop a relationship with an experienced pitch-calling catcher, because if she had, you'd have an entirely different opinion.

Most college coaches haven't called pitches from behind the plate. Until you've called pitches from behind the plate and then try to do it from the bench, you have no idea what you are missing. Those that haven't don't understand that there's another level of effectiveness that can be attained by a good pitcher working with an experienced pitch-calling catcher that they've learned to trust - it morphs from a fact-based science to a science-based art form. It's the reason why some MLB superstar pitchers had personal catchers.

You're kidding yourself if you think it magically becomes better in college, cuz it really doesn't for most despite the advantage of voluminous data and scouting reports. If you start teaching a catcher how to call a game at 12U (when it doesn't really matter what they call because most pitchers only have 1-2 reliable pitches), with the experience that they've gained by the time they hit college they will be able to call a better game than 95% of dugout called games. Just on example from the past few WCWS, how many pitchers have had their rhythm disrupted (or never were able to get into synch) waiting for Einstein in the dugout to decide on and call in every pitch?

 

[JAD]

Pitchers appreciate good pitch calling, regardless of where it is coming from...

 

[obbay]

I prefer it when the pitcher and catcher work the calls themselves and aren't required to look to the dugout. Her freshman year, pre-season, the HS AC keeps calling the same damn thing and the other team keeps teeing off (he had a thing for the High Fastball)DD and catcher have a conference with AC, he gets frustrated and tells them "if you're so smart, call your own pitches!" so they did and proceeded to sit down the next 7 batters at which point they changed pitchers.

I have seen more inexperienced pitch-calling from coaches at the HS /U18 level, so I tend to favor the pitcher/catcher pitch calling. That said, this year we got a new AC who was actually good at it and it was a very good experience for DD. He is her TB coach and continues to call for her- the only drawback being that he takes too long and she's not getting practice working it with the catcher.

In the game I originally posted about, their #1 catcher was DD's Catcher last year and they worked great together. she was sitting out this game as she needed a rest. That team is trying to teach their catchers how to call pitches, which I think is great.

 

[riseball]

JAD - I can only conclude that your DD has never had the opportunity to develop a relationship with an experienced pitch-calling catcher, because if she had, you'd have an entirely different opinion.

Most college coaches haven't called pitches from behind the plate. Until you've called pitches from behind the plate and then try to do it from the bench, you have no idea what you are missing. Those that haven't don't understand that there's another level of effectiveness that can be attained by a good pitcher working with an experienced pitch-calling catcher that they've learned to trust - it morphs from a fact-based science to a science-based art form. It's the reason why some MLB superstar pitchers had personal catchers.

You're kidding yourself if you think it magically becomes better in college, cuz it really doesn't for most despite the advantage of voluminous data and scouting reports. If you start teaching a catcher how to call a game at 12U (when it doesn't really matter what they call because most pitchers only have 1-2 reliable pitches), with the experience that they've gained by the time they hit college they will be able to call a better game than 95% of dugout called games. Just on example from the past few WCWS, how many pitchers have had their rhythm disrupted (or never were able to get into synch) waiting for Einstein in the dugout to decide on and call in every pitch?

You raise some valid point but lets keep it real. At the higher levels it is done from the dugout and for good reasons. First the skills to do so behind the plate are simply not there. Many catchers in college were not full time dedicated catchers when they were recruited. My DD's catcher a Senior had not had real time behind the plate since TB. She did a great job but certainly was not up to the task of calling a game vs SEC competition. The idea that kid can gain meaningful pitch calling experience at 12U or 14U is folly. At that age rarely if ever does the pitcher have the command to put the ball in a specific location. We all know the claim of having multiple legitimate pitches at that age is one of the jokes in the game. There is no benefit to anyone calling pitches either from behind the dish or the dugout if you have no idea where the ball will end up. Another factor is pitch calling is a very important part of the game. Way too important to be left to a player that most likely does not have the skills or experience when a coaches job is on the line every season if not every game. Yes, it is true that in the MLB some superstar pitchers have personal catchers. But this is not the MLB. It is not even the same sport. And catchers are not being paid millions of dollars to provide that value. You cannot expect to drink champagne when you are on a beer budget. The game of womens fast pitch has evolved and having a catcher call the game has gone the way of the dinosaur.

 

[sleepwalker]

It was interesting to watch the Softball WCWS this year. As I watched the pitchers take the pitch calls from the dugout, I noticed that most girls on some teams are wearing wrist bands to see what pitch is being called. I am guessing that the concept is that if the fielders know what pitch is being called and what location that it is being thrown to, that the fielders will have a better chance of anticipating where the ball may be hit and thus reduce hits and/or errors.

Looking back a few years, when the pitch calls were being relayed through the catcher, I often noticed that the middle infielders would signal to the outfielders the pitch location with their non glove hands behind their backs. If the pitcher shook off a pitch, the middle infielders could still relay the pitch locations to the outfield. Obviously the hot corners will be the only two that don't know what pitch or location is coming.

With the calls coming out of the dugout and the wrist bands being worn by most, if not all of the fielders, it is harder for a pitcher to shake off a pitch in the upper levels of softball. The only defense mechanism that the pitcher seems to have is to throw the pitch that is called, but throw it out of the strike zone or use it as a waste pitch if she doesn't feel that the particular pitch isn't going to be her best pitch to cause a strikeout, ground out or pop up.

As my dd progressed and pitched at the college level, if she didn't throw the pitch that the coach called, she didn't pitch, period. She wasn't afforded the chance to shake off pitches her Freshman year.

As a pickup player in travel ball, I always instructed my dd to talk with the catchers and let them know what pitches they could call. I told my dd that she should throw the pitches that were called by the catcher or coach, as she was the guest. The pitcher may not agree with the pitch call, but the pitcher never loses control over the location of where that pitch ends up.

As I watched South Carolina on the ESPN this year, what impressed me most about the pitcher was her ability to control the crappy hitting pitches that she offered to the batters.

Some of my dd's best pitches are crappy pitches that she uses to set up her go to pitch, latter in the at-bat.

As bucket dads, I believe we watch the game of softball and pitching different than the majority of those who watch the game.

 

[canyonjoe]

In the future if you ever guest on a team and are going to pitch I would have your DD ask the HC how and who calls pitches. I don't condone what the catcher
did, but I'm guessing she just really didn't want to go through a whole scenerio for 1 inning. While I wouldn't have DD just ignore C and throw say a change up that
she wasn't expecting, I would have her hit corners early in the count even if location isn't called. Throwing a Drop in stead of a FB shouldn't cause too much problem either.

 

[MNDad]

Throwing a Drop in stead of a FB shouldn't cause too much problem either.

I think any bucket parent’s shins might disagree with you