javasource
6-4-3 = 2
Fo' shizzle my nizzle.
Thanks, brutha.
Thanks, brutha.
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Time for a reality check on IR
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- Sep 10, 2013
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the info i got from the IR thread has been invaluable in my DD's progress. while she has picked up some bad habits along the way, one thing that she has dropped completely is the HE and square to the catcher finish and to be asked by a parent if DD gives pitching lessons is one compliment DD will never forget. adios HE, ola I/R.
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,390
- 113
You forgot to mention Hal.
I haven’t read every single post here because I’m presently drowning in a hitting thread I started, but I think what the OP is saying is that many folks, like myself, can find themselves so wrapped up in getting the “whip” correct and perfect, they find themselves solely working on that, and they/we forget about the other important elements....because we BADLY want to have the whip and I/R working.
I myself am guilty of that.
With my youngest I have been all over her with IR/Whip….reading reading reading and trying everything everything everything.
We finally went to see Bill Hillhouse and he said….”her whip is fine”; what she needs to focus/correct is…..etc.
After Bill Hillhouse, we found a local instructor who pitched with the whip…she said the same thing…her whip is fine; she needs to work on ….etc.
I feel bad....All this time I have been tough on her about the whip whip whip I/R I/R I/R, when in fact she might have been fine with it all along. Now we are behind (IMO) because we are trying to focus and relearn some of the basic fundamental elements of the motion.
Both Bill Hillhouse and Sierra assessed her faults the same…her main culprit is she’s not staying on track.
We also went to see Phil Schonberg, he too stressed the importance of staying on track.
Boardmember: I agree….IR/Whip is better, ideal and critical to maximizing your potential and talent. And as Sluggers said, at times there appears to be a misconception that if you have good whip, you’re a good pitcher…when the reality is, good pitchers have good whip.
and…I’ll second what Bill Hillhouse said…You forgot Hal.
I myself am guilty of that.
With my youngest I have been all over her with IR/Whip….reading reading reading and trying everything everything everything.
We finally went to see Bill Hillhouse and he said….”her whip is fine”; what she needs to focus/correct is…..etc.
After Bill Hillhouse, we found a local instructor who pitched with the whip…she said the same thing…her whip is fine; she needs to work on ….etc.
I feel bad....All this time I have been tough on her about the whip whip whip I/R I/R I/R, when in fact she might have been fine with it all along. Now we are behind (IMO) because we are trying to focus and relearn some of the basic fundamental elements of the motion.
Both Bill Hillhouse and Sierra assessed her faults the same…her main culprit is she’s not staying on track.
We also went to see Phil Schonberg, he too stressed the importance of staying on track.
Boardmember: I agree….IR/Whip is better, ideal and critical to maximizing your potential and talent. And as Sluggers said, at times there appears to be a misconception that if you have good whip, you’re a good pitcher…when the reality is, good pitchers have good whip.
and…I’ll second what Bill Hillhouse said…You forgot Hal.
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- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,796
- 63
I'm not sure how young your youngest is..........But the simple fact that you taught her I/R........And then took her to 2 PC's that said "her whip is fine", says something to me about teaching I/R to a beginner.......
This statement seems a little disingenuous to me T.J. Are you trying to say that your youngest had all the basics down pat before you embarked on teaching her to throw the ball underhand properly.......And because you embarked on working on I/R and whip with her.......She lost/forgot all the other basics she already had engrained?..........And now she's behind because of it?
I'm not sure I can buy into that statement exactly as it's written T.J........I'll just leave it at that.........
Teaching I/R as a fundamental precursor to the full motion, or focusing on the PROPER release mechanism AS part of the entire package, does not in itself become responsible for a pitcher "going backwards" as you assert IMO..........
If I'm correct. You are not a pitching coach. Yet the only thing you taught her.......The actual PC's you took her to approved of.......And it's something other then what you taught her where she was lacking........Again......Because you are not a pitching coach........Now that makes sense to me........
Again, your asserting that you had her "on track", and because you began work with her on I/R she is "no longer on track"........
And I'll point out once again.......Your statement that "she may have" been fine all along.........But that is a shot in the dark........And the fact that you did teach her I/R means that THAT part of her motion IS on track.........Without leaving it up to chance.......
Exactly.........Because as I said........That is the FUNDAMENTAL ABSOLUTE required to "get there"........And the information IS available........So lets teach it correctly.........Instead of "leaving it to chance" as your yourself stated.........
No.......Who I forgot was Hillhouse.........Bill, and now you, have made that obvious.......
So lets not forget to include Bill, I don't want to get his panties all up in a bunch........
Maybe someday he'll explain the fundamentals of "Elbow Snap/Whip" so people here who don't have the pleasure of attaining lessons from him will understand what he teaches........And why........And how it can help them IMPROVE.........That's what this board is about.........
Although I respect AND believe he is a very good PC.......And have no problem endorsing him to many people who ask me about him..........I can not put him in the same catagory as Rick or Java in terms of FREELY sharing HIS fundamental and/or high level mechanical information in the fast pitch motion.....To this board anyway.........
But then Skinner just wanted us to "buy his books"...........
Regards.......
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- Feb 7, 2013
- 3,188
- 48
I agree with BM when he says 80% of pitching mechanics is arm whip. Remember when sling shot pitchers could really bring it without leap and drag, a good arm circle, or good drive mechanics, etc. They couldn't achieve great velocity and spin without using internal rotation (I/R) mechanics.
I'm not sure how young your youngest is..........But the simple fact that you taught her I/R........And then took her to 2 PC's that said "her whip is fine", says something to me about teaching I/R to a beginner.......
She is 12…and I guess what your saying is having the I/R release down is the best foundation to build off of.
This statement seems a little disingenuous to me T.J. Are you trying to say that your youngest had all the basics down pat before you embarked on teaching her to throw the ball underhand properly.......And because you embarked on working on I/R and whip with her.......She lost/forgot all the other basics she already had engrained?..........And now she's behind because of it?
No…you’re right….I misspoke a little. She by no means had the other parts down pat. A year ago I posted a thread about hand position and the fact I was going to leave her PC that she had been seeing for about 4 months.
Here is the thread…http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/12838-hand-ball-position-direction.html
While she was seeing this PC (who was huge on slamming the door) she was working on all the aspects of the motion…but she was still a beginner. Once we left that PC it’s just been her and I, as I was committed to not bringing her to another HE-slam the door PC. So we read & worked on I/R, read & worked on I/R, installed a dirt pitching lane in the yard, etc. We went to see Phil one weekend in April, and Bill back in November to help me with the whip/IR portion. So you are right…she was not a polished pitcher that I converted to I/R; who then lost everything else she learned. I guess I’m not sure what I’m feeling…part of me wishes I did a better job teaching her the other stuff too. Maybe and hopefully a year or two from now we will look back and be happy we did things right….[or wish she stuck with catching (lol)]
I'm not sure I can buy into that statement exactly as it's written T.J........I'll just leave it at that.........
Teaching I/R as a fundamental precursor to the full motion, or focusing on the PROPER release mechanism AS part of the entire package, does not in itself become responsible for a pitcher "going backwards" as you assert IMO..........
No…I am responsible for not helping her move forward with everything else too. That, combined with what the old PC was teaching her, has her doing some things fundamentally wrong; and we are finding they are tough to fix. It's frustrating at times for a 12yo, and it's hard to convince her to trust me that she will get there.
And I'll point out once again.......Your statement that "she may have" been fine all along.........But that is a shot in the dark........And the fact that you did teach her I/R means that THAT part of her motion IS on track.........Without leaving it up to chance.......
Yeah…and it’s nice we found a local PC who can help her with the whole package.
Needing two trains, a plane and an automobile to travel to a PC can get pricey
My DD likes her too, and I will say she has improved since we started seeing her; so it’s all good.
I don't know...maybe I just needed to talk it out cuz I feel better now
She is 12…and I guess what your saying is having the I/R release down is the best foundation to build off of.
This statement seems a little disingenuous to me T.J. Are you trying to say that your youngest had all the basics down pat before you embarked on teaching her to throw the ball underhand properly.......And because you embarked on working on I/R and whip with her.......She lost/forgot all the other basics she already had engrained?..........And now she's behind because of it?
No…you’re right….I misspoke a little. She by no means had the other parts down pat. A year ago I posted a thread about hand position and the fact I was going to leave her PC that she had been seeing for about 4 months.
Here is the thread…http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/12838-hand-ball-position-direction.html
While she was seeing this PC (who was huge on slamming the door) she was working on all the aspects of the motion…but she was still a beginner. Once we left that PC it’s just been her and I, as I was committed to not bringing her to another HE-slam the door PC. So we read & worked on I/R, read & worked on I/R, installed a dirt pitching lane in the yard, etc. We went to see Phil one weekend in April, and Bill back in November to help me with the whip/IR portion. So you are right…she was not a polished pitcher that I converted to I/R; who then lost everything else she learned. I guess I’m not sure what I’m feeling…part of me wishes I did a better job teaching her the other stuff too. Maybe and hopefully a year or two from now we will look back and be happy we did things right….[or wish she stuck with catching (lol)]
I'm not sure I can buy into that statement exactly as it's written T.J........I'll just leave it at that.........
Teaching I/R as a fundamental precursor to the full motion, or focusing on the PROPER release mechanism AS part of the entire package, does not in itself become responsible for a pitcher "going backwards" as you assert IMO..........
No…I am responsible for not helping her move forward with everything else too. That, combined with what the old PC was teaching her, has her doing some things fundamentally wrong; and we are finding they are tough to fix. It's frustrating at times for a 12yo, and it's hard to convince her to trust me that she will get there.
And I'll point out once again.......Your statement that "she may have" been fine all along.........But that is a shot in the dark........And the fact that you did teach her I/R means that THAT part of her motion IS on track.........Without leaving it up to chance.......
Yeah…and it’s nice we found a local PC who can help her with the whole package.
Needing two trains, a plane and an automobile to travel to a PC can get pricey
My DD likes her too, and I will say she has improved since we started seeing her; so it’s all good.
I don't know...maybe I just needed to talk it out cuz I feel better now
Maybe it is all a matter of definition.
I'm having difficulty in putting IR with "the whip" and then claiming 80% of the throwing motion is IR. Kind of like saying, "Me and Tiger Woods combined to make $9,000,00 last year."
Here is Anna Miller from Upstate South Carolina (pitching starts around 1 min):
[video=youtube_share;uxQHjsj6Z3Q]http://youtu.be/uxQHjsj6Z3Q[/video]
Clearly, she is using an HE. However, her whip is good and she has good lower body mechanics. She hasn't lost 80% of her pitching power because she is using HE.
BUT (and there is always a but) when she starts trying to throw an IR drop curve (around 6:55), it seems she has more pop on the ball than she does with her fastball.
I'm having difficulty in putting IR with "the whip" and then claiming 80% of the throwing motion is IR. Kind of like saying, "Me and Tiger Woods combined to make $9,000,00 last year."
Here is Anna Miller from Upstate South Carolina (pitching starts around 1 min):
[video=youtube_share;uxQHjsj6Z3Q]http://youtu.be/uxQHjsj6Z3Q[/video]
Clearly, she is using an HE. However, her whip is good and she has good lower body mechanics. She hasn't lost 80% of her pitching power because she is using HE.
BUT (and there is always a but) when she starts trying to throw an IR drop curve (around 6:55), it seems she has more pop on the ball than she does with her fastball.
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As I said in that other thread in this regarrd, and BM can correct me if I'm wrong, HE-style isn't so much about HE finish as it is about pushing the ball through release with the hand starting down or nearly down at 9:00. While Anna Miller may finish with a HE-like finish, she isn't using HE-style pitching.....NOT in that 9:00 through release and slightly beyond range of her pitch. It's quite clear.
JJsqueeze
Dad, Husband....legend
I agree with Doug on this Sluggers. She may point the elbow, but she pitches with I/R. How you point the elbow after the ball is released is about as important as what color nail polish a pitcher has on.
