Thoughts on Daughter's Swing

[FiveFrameSwing]

Notice his back knee driving down and forward in unison with his back elbow driving down and forward. This forces the front hip to move, but not the front shoulder because of the skeleton. The front and back shoulders are not one solid bone as the front and back hips are. If the hips were separate the front hip would act as the front shoulder does with less movement at initiation.

Also, notice how quiet his head is!

Jim, I like your description here. Personally I view the knee action as a ‘result’ of the rear leg uncoiling and the extraction of ground reaction forces. IMO the observation of the back elbow lowering, in conjunction with this action, is key.

I don’t believe Softballphreak believes that the hips open magically … and that he understands the use of the rear leg and backside. The video is pretty clear … in terms of rotational movement “towards” the pitcher, the hips lead both the shoulders & hands. That is, the hips will be seen rotating in the direction of the pitched ball prior to the shoulders rotating in the direction of the pitched ball … and also prior to the hands moving forward towards the pitched ball. I believe the concern Softballphreak had with your comments was a perceived notion that this was not happening in your viewpoint. The ‘coil’ and ‘uncoil’ leading to this has been discussed somewhat frequently … as has the concept of throwing, or powering the swing, from the backside.

As for the head movement … it is quiet. My earlier comment here was that a goal of being perfectly quiet is not necessarily a good goal and I posted some videos that reviewed when head movement should exist … which I thought you seemed to agree with. I believe where we disagreed was the approach … you preferred to see head movement worked on directly as a goal, whereas I preferred to see it treated as a ‘result’ and have the ‘cause’ worked on directly instead.

 

[tom.guerry]

Jim-

It is refreshing to hear your rear side emphasis. the great majority of batting coaches I have encountered emphasize front side dominance, getting weight to front side, connection of front arm to shoulder and powering swing with front shoulder turning/pulling "connected" front arm in shoulder plane. You hardly ever hear coaches who promote the rear side first and the front side in terms of how it needs to work to let the rear side do its job.

How did you figure this out ?

 

[tom.guerry]

another coach with rear side emphasis:

High Level Hitting

 

[Jim]

The swing starts from the ground up. By saying the hips lead I am not saying the hips open. I'm definitely not promoting spinning.

We're on the right track here. I believe you are going to find out pretty quickly that the hands don't jump out front ahead of the "train". You (and your students) are about to see a significant increase in performance.

Do yourself a favor and read some of the recent posts from the past few weeks or more on this very subject.

You may be right, my eyes aren't trained. That's why I appreciated the slow motion clips.

Everything is almost effortless until the swing. The calm before the storm.

Thanks softballfreak, I think you may have assumed that I think the hands lead the swing. Describing the swing is not as cut and dry as many think. It's not one thing first, then the next, then the next. Everything works together in a sequence. As you probably know.

I was just stating that when hitters "try to" or "work to" lead with their hips, they lose the connection between everything else that actually drives the swing. I describe the feel and location of effort within the pattern.

I guess we were just on different pages for a moment.

I thing that teaching hitting is more the teaching of the feel of hitting.

 

[Jim]

Jim-

It is refreshing to hear your rear side emphasis. the great majority of batting coaches I have encountered emphasize front side dominance, getting weight to front side, connection of front arm to shoulder and powering swing with front shoulder turning/pulling "connected" front arm in shoulder plane. You hardly ever hear coaches who promote the rear side first and the front side in terms of how it needs to work to let the rear side do its job.

How did you figure this out ?

I worked very, very hard as a hitter when I played in college and professionally (needed to, wasn't blessed with as much talent as some). Watched a lot, listened a lot, HIT A TON. I was very fortunate to be able to take batting practice in groups with future hall of famers and learn a lot from them.

One thing that I developed was a good feel for the "timing belts" (if you will) in the swing. I have been a coach for the past nine going on ten years, having worked with hitters at the highest level. It's strange but when I watch someone swing a bat I can (in a sense) feel what I am seeing.

Anyways, I am still learning. There really isn't a moment any of us figure it all out. It's a continuous process.

I love my job (if you can call it that).

 

[Tewks]

I worked very, very hard as a hitter when I played in college and professionally (needed to, wasn't blessed with as much talent as some). Watched a lot, listened a lot, HIT A TON. I was very fortunate to be able to take batting practice in groups with future hall of famers and learn a lot from them.

One thing that I developed was a good feel for the "timing belts" (if you will) in the swing. I have been a coach for the past nine going on ten years, having worked with hitters at the highest level. It's strange but when I watch someone swing a bat I can (in a sense) feel what I am seeing.

Anyways, I am still learning. There really isn't a moment any of us figure it all out. It's a continuous process.

I love my job (if you can call it that).

Hi Jim,

I love this post. I also love my job.

Looking forward to reading more from you.

 

[RayR]

Thanks softballfreak, I think you may have assumed that I think the hands lead the swing. Describing the swing is not as cut and dry as many think. It's not one thing first, then the next, then the next. Everything works together in a sequence. As you probably know.

I was just stating that when hitters "try to" or "work to" lead with their hips, they lose the connection between everything else that actually drives the swing. I describe the feel and location of effort within the pattern.

I guess we were just on different pages for a moment.

I thing that teaching hitting is more the teaching of the feel of hitting.

Hey Jim, Just some food for thought....if you know where your hands need to be it makes it much easier to work the swing from the ground up....not unlike a golf swing getting your hands into the correct path leads to a higher level of coordination/rythym/tempo from the rest of your body....so while I tend to promote a "Handcentric" approach I understand fully that the hands do not lead the swing.

I freely admit that I have chased hitting theories that promoted body parts leading the swing....it really is a bunch of false positives....once you understand hand path and feel what lag really is you start to also feel what it is like to swing a bat with an easy (easier) amount of effort....

 

[Jim]

Hey Jim, Just some food for thought....if you know where your hands need to be it makes it much easier to work the swing from the ground up....not unlike a golf swing getting your hands into the correct path leads to a higher level of coordination/rythym/tempo from the rest of your body....so while I tend to promote a "Handcentric" approach I understand fully that the hands do not lead the swing.

I freely admit that I have chased hitting theories that promoted body parts leading the swing....it really is a bunch of false positives....once you understand hand path and feel what lag really is you start to also feel what it is like to swing a bat with an easy (easier) amount of effort....

Thanks. It's about where the effort is placed and when.

 

[Mr T]

IMO I wouldnt get to crazy yet, she is only 9 and has a terrific swing even for alot of older girls. But she still has the mind of a 9yo. The over rotation will become a problem if allowed to continue, I would start with her weight shift and overhand throw and relate it to lower body hitting mechanics. Less is more at age 9. You should learn all you can and try to understand all of the big words used on here but dont try to explain eversion or you will lose her. Thats a pretty impressive natural swing, proceed with caution.

This is as far as I could get in this 13 page epic.

Dad, I really really like these guys that are replying. Good food for thought. However, let's get real, this kid has a great swing for a 9 yr old. I am extremely anal about mechanics (see other threads) but I can tell you your daughter is well ahead of the game. We can pick apart her swing like she's in college but I challenge people to post their 9 yr old to compare. We'll see a ton of arm swings I can guarantee you that.

I work 8 and 10U all the time and it's very very rare to see a girl who basically rotates correctly, keeps her hands back, has a near perfect position at moment of impact, and gives the follow through her all.

I started looking at this clip frame by frame in all of its hi res glory (may I have your vcam pls) and there is a lot of crazy stuff in the beginning. I see this all the time however when girls this age hit off a tee. They try to kill the ball and their minds tell them to lean back, wrap their hands way too far around their body, etc.

I am guessing her real swing is much better in this regard, but if not you could start with the easy task of simplifying her stance to slot positions. The harder task of rotation, bat lag, and follow through are looking good for her age. There is always room for improvement but very well done already.

 

[dukie]

Thanks MrT. Here's a shot off the pitching machine.
FiveFrameSwing, I haven't forgotten the front toss video. She's been troubled by a jammed thumb the last week so we haven't done any hitting.