The Pirates pitcher who succeeds by not throwing strikes

[Greenmonsters]

FFS has nailed it. In major college softball the opponent scouting by the pitching coach is intense and certainly should give them a better understanding of a certain hitters weaknesses relative to their pitchers strengths.......in most cases (including me) the pitcher is allowed/encouraged to shake off a pitch if they feel uncomfortable with the one called or if they feel another pitch is going to be more effective. My pitchers last year were allowed to shake and did.

Rick, your thoughts and participation here are invaluable, but, and no disrespect intended, I'm sure you could call an even better game if you were catching rather than in the dugout!

100% agree that a pitcher should be able to shake off any pitch at any time as the last thing you want is to have them throwing a pitch that they don't have complete confidence in at that point and time. That said, I don't believe that the pitcher is best at making real-time unbiased, objective assessments of their own pitches and effectiveness. IME, that evaluation is best made collaboratively by a good pitching coach and catcher.

Pitchers aren't robots and don't bring the same stuff to every game or even every inning, umpires all have their own zones and idiosyncrasies, and batters too make adjustments as games progress.. That the read on this is more accurate from behind the plate than from the dugout really isn't debatable. The crux of the situation is that it takes a catcher that has learned to make those reads and is capable of processing them to effectively use that information mid-inning in the larger context of the game plan, which previously has been discussed w/ the PC and pitcher (and can be effectively summarized on an arm band). IMO/IME, its much easier to convey the game plan to the catcher than it is to relay the pulse of the game back to the bench. Unfortunately most catchers haven't been taught those skills and developed that experience before they get to college where the coaches' records and job security often don't allow for a learning curve.

IMO, opportunity and experience are the only things that prevent catchers from becoming better at calling a game than the coach who was never involved in calling a game before they started coaching.

 

[Rick Pauly]

Quote from GreenMonster
"Rick, your thoughts and participation here are invaluable, but, and no disrespect intended, I'm sure you could call an even better game if you were catching rather than in the dugout!"

Green
Agree 100% with the view behind the plate being ideal. So the decision comes down to who calls the pitch......in major college softball (and most major college baseball) the coach calls the pitches. In the NPF the catchers call the pitches (and get a lot of help from the pitchers) and so it is with Pro baseball. I am guessing the difference is the softball intelligence level of the catcher/pitcher.....it may take 4 years of college softball/baseball to accumulate the level of knowledge to make a coach comfortable enough to turn the pitch calling over. In the pros they are working with the cream of the crop.
Not saying any of this is right or wrong, but in general this is the way it is. I've coached a few catchers that are just plain savy at a young age and can call a good game....maybe better than the coach.
I'll throw out one possible reason for the hesitancy of turning pitch calling over to the catcher or lack of a catchers development.....how many catchers go to a catching instructor and receive instruction on dissecting a hitters swing, setting up one pitch with another, situational pitch calling, etc.......few would be my guess. It's a shame but probably true. This whole discussion regarding catcher training for pitch calling would make for a great thread. The root cause of coaches calling pitches might be in the lack of catcher development. Instead of us beating up on pitching coaches maybe we should get after the catching coaches....

 

[CoogansBluff]

Quote from GreenMonster
"Rick, your thoughts and participation here are invaluable, but, and no disrespect intended, I'm sure you could call an even better game if you were catching rather than in the dugout!"

Green
Agree 100% with the view behind the plate being ideal. So the decision comes down to who calls the pitch......in major college softball (and most major college baseball) the coach calls the pitches. In the NPF the catchers call the pitches (and get a lot of help from the pitchers) and so it is with Pro baseball. I am guessing the difference is the softball intelligence level of the catcher/pitcher.....it may take 4 years of college softball/baseball to accumulate the level of knowledge to make a coach comfortable enough to turn the pitch calling over. In the pros they are working with the cream of the crop.
Not saying any of this is right or wrong, but in general this is the way it is. I've coached a few catchers that are just plain savy at a young age and can call a good game....maybe better than the coach.
I'll throw out one possible reason for the hesitancy of turning pitch calling over to the catcher or lack of a catchers development.....how many catchers go to a catching instructor and receive instruction on dissecting a hitters swing, setting up one pitch with another, situational pitch calling, etc.......few would be my guess. It's a shame but probably true. This whole discussion regarding catcher training for pitch calling would make for a great thread. The root cause of coaches calling pitches might be in the lack of catcher development. Instead of us beating up on pitching coaches maybe we should get after the catching coaches....

Great insights. Thanks. ...

Not sure if this is part of what you're saying or not, but college players have only so much time they can devote to softball. They have to be students as well. Plus, there are NCAA rules about how much time a coach can spend coaching a player. ... Meanwhile, coaches (theoretically) have all day. So, it would make sense that coaches in college would rather assign the job of scouting and studying another team and coming up w/ a game plan for themselves, and using the players' limited time for other things. It's like ''let me take that off your plate'' because I'd rather you work on things that I can't do for you, like pitch, catch and hit.

 

[SoAZDad]

Quote from GreenMonster
"Rick, your thoughts and participation here are invaluable, but, and no disrespect intended, I'm sure you could call an even better game if you were catching rather than in the dugout!"

Green
Agree 100% with the view behind the plate being ideal. So the decision comes down to who calls the pitch......in major college softball (and most major college baseball) the coach calls the pitches. In the NPF the catchers call the pitches (and get a lot of help from the pitchers) and so it is with Pro baseball. I am guessing the difference is the softball intelligence level of the catcher/pitcher.....it may take 4 years of college softball/baseball to accumulate the level of knowledge to make a coach comfortable enough to turn the pitch calling over. In the pros they are working with the cream of the crop.
Not saying any of this is right or wrong, but in general this is the way it is. I've coached a few catchers that are just plain savy at a young age and can call a good game....maybe better than the coach.
I'll throw out one possible reason for the hesitancy of turning pitch calling over to the catcher or lack of a catchers development.....how many catchers go to a catching instructor and receive instruction on dissecting a hitters swing, setting up one pitch with another, situational pitch calling, etc.......few would be my guess. It's a shame but probably true. This whole discussion regarding catcher training for pitch calling would make for a great thread. The root cause of coaches calling pitches might be in the lack of catcher development. Instead of us beating up on pitching coaches maybe we should get after the catching coaches....

Rick,

I completely agree with your assessment of the younger ages. For example, our org at 12U and older, lets the catcher call pitches in friendlies and most pool games. But we have some catchers who are rock solid blockers & framers for 5 games in a day that cannot yet understand the strategy of setting up a batter by watching them now and what they did the last PA and the games before this one. We also have a catcher or two who can't last quite as long but understand what the batter is or may not be looking for. It's a delicate balance and should be learned by 10th grade HS or so. I believe college catchers, with the notes and signs from the dugout, should not get waved off very often. But indeed there are times when a pitcher (and not just a thrower) knows best.

 

[JAD]

FFS has nailed it. In major college softball the opponent scouting by the pitching coach is intense and certainly should give them a better understanding of a certain hitters weaknesses relative to their pitchers strengths.......in most cases (including me) the pitcher is allowed/encouraged to shake off a pitch if they feel uncomfortable with the one called or if they feel another pitch is going to be more effective. My pitchers last year were allowed to shake and did.

I will agree in MAJOR COLLEGE SOFTBALL, but how many TB and HS coaches have access to similar scouting reports? My problem is with TB and HS coaches who ACT LIKE they have major college level scouting reports, when all they really have is an ego.....

 

[Cowdogz]

Softball is a whole other animal. Like someone mentioned before, as a baseball coach I set a team philosophy for calling pitches, and then let 13-year-old catchers go do it. I only call a pitch from the bench 2-3 times an inning, sometimes more depending on the situation. It's their game, I like to let them play it.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

At a lot times, especially at the younger ages, when you have the catcher calling the game, it ends up that the pitcher is actually calling the game … and as GM pointed out earlier, the pitcher is not always the “best at making real-time unbiased, objective assessments of their own pitches and effectiveness”.

What I see somewhat frequently is pitchers believing that they are best situated to be calling the game. Personally I wonder if their PC’s make them believe that their role on the team is even more exciting. Let’s face it … pitching is about going through long boring monotonous practices … again and again … and some PCs attempt to pump them up with dreams.

Allow pitchers significant freedom to shake off pitches, and they effectively are calling the game. If a pitcher has been throwing the drop well all game, and suddenly doesn’t like it … it isn’t because they can’t throw it, but because they wish to execute a different strategy than the coach … and a lot of times, the strategy the pitcher goes with, runs dry … i.e., it is a one-pitch strategy, and it breaks the entire sequence of that at-bat.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I will agree in MAJOR COLLEGE SOFTBALL, but how many TB and HS coaches have access to similar scouting reports? My problem is with TB and HS coaches who ACT LIKE they have major college level scouting reports, when all they really have is an ego.....

The pitch caller has an excellent view of how the batter is responding to pitches ... which comes in handy when the scouting report is dry.

As for the ego issue ... I would think these same coaches that you complain about would believe the ego issue resides with the parents wanting their kid to call the game.

 

[chinamigarden]

It certainly helps if the pitcher is on the same wavelength as the pitch caller and has an understanding of the particular strategy being used. Not uncommon for a pitcher and pitch caller to review the anticipated degree of 'misses' based on pitch count ... and to understand when a pitch is a take-down pitch, a pitch to weak-contact pitch, or a setup pitch for an upcoming pitch.

The pitcher really does have a lot to do. She should be making 'adjustments' based on the last time she threw the pitch she is about to throw. Just as a hitter feels their swing, and re-calibrates for the next swing.

On a somewhat different analogy ... should the Generals or Soldiers run our wars?

The generals devise the strategy but they don't say "shoot that one now that one, now that one... They don't micromanage every bullet.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

The generals devise the strategy but they don't say "shoot that one now that one, now that one... They don't micromanage every bullet.

To a large extent, pitch calling is the management of the defensive attack plan.