Should we use MLB hitters as examples?

[FiveFrameSwing]

As an FYI .... just to add to the discussion ...

According to Yeager, completing the shift of the center of pressure to the front leg, with a closed front foot, optimizes the Kinetic Link in two ways.

First, Yeager believes that a closed front foot makes it easier to stop the body's forward momentum because knee flexion in that direction is not permitted because the front foot is closed off.

Yeager states that opening the front foot allows the knee to flex, and that this results in a loss of momentum.

Yeager's belief is that a complete block results in stabilization of the head and the body's weight behind the front foot and also results in a complete momentum transfer to the hips. In other words ... no momentum is lost on drifting.

In addition, opening at the foot can open the hips prematurely.

Keeping the front foot closed ensures that the hips will be open more rapidly through ground reaction forces in the transfer of momentum.

Much of Yeager's work is in having the legs operate in relation to the top hand much like in the throwing motion. He likes to see the front side closed, essentially dead, as the body is driven forward. He does not want to see a hitter step out or flop their foot open as they land.

Yeager considers it important that the front knee and front hip not flare open. He wants the hitter to land with the knee and hip closed.

 

[Mark H]

As an FYI .... just to add to the discussion ...

According to Yeager, completing the shift of the center of pressure to the front leg, with a closed front foot, optimizes the Kinetic Link in two ways.

First, Yeager believes that a closed front foot makes it easier to stop the body's forward momentum because knee flexion in that direction is not permitted because the front foot is closed off.

Yeager states that opening the front foot allows the knee to flex, and that this results in a loss of momentum.

Yeager's belief is that a complete block results in stabilization of the head and the body's weight behind the front foot and also results in a complete momentum transfer to the hips. In other words ... no momentum is lost on drifting.

In addition, opening at the foot can open the hips prematurely.

Keeping the front foot closed ensures that the hips will be open more rapidly through ground reaction forces in the transfer of momentum.

Much of Yeager's work is in having the legs operate in relation to the top hand much like in the throwing motion. He likes to see the front side closed, essentially dead, as the body is driven forward. He does not want to see a hitter step out or flop their foot open as they land.

Yeager considers it important that the front knee and front hip not flare open. He wants the hitter to land with the knee and hip closed.

In terms of training, lots of good stuff there. In terms of game swing, if the front leg and foot do open up, it should be pelvic rotation that does it.

 

[SBFAMILY]

If the front foot is open much more than 45 degrees you are giving up power! You can feel the leverage difference in the lead hip when you do this. If the front knee is straight or stiff the hip will not move and if you hit the front hip you will feel the resistance and the wiggle is gone. So we teach them step on a flex front leg on the big toe or inside of the foot. If you were barefoot you should be able to wiggle your little toe.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

In terms of training, lots of good stuff there. In terms of game swing, if the front leg and foot do open up, it should be pelvic rotation that does it.

Agree ... the idea is not to spin, or rotate the back leg without rotating the hips.

 

[softballphreak]

I find it stressful on my knee joint to hit with a closed front foot, but then again I'm old. It's not the landing, it's the torque/rotational forces from the backside that hurts. As Dr. Marshall points out, the knees aren't designed to work that way. Factor in his emphasis that the muscles that support the knee of the typical female athlete aren't as strong/awake as a male athlete, and IMO there is potential for injury.

I haven't found an issue with either feet while in the stance. Have you? My personal preference is that both feet are close to square.

With the proper stride length there is not much stress at the knees; there is more stress at the ankles. The outside of the stride foot should feel the most stress. If someone is torqueing at the knees they're doing something wrong.

The knees should be flexed at toe touch and the front leg should be very firm at heel down and point of contact.

All that applies to male and female athletes.

 

[coachbudk]

I am not disagreeing with anything posted, but

Does the fact that softball hitters never have to switch to a wood bat matter?

They have a much bigger sweet spot, correct?

 

[cshilt]

Does the fact that softball hitters never have to switch to a wood bat matter?

They have a much bigger sweet spot, correct?

That is a great question, IMO. I think there is some truth to that; a good bat can hide a bad swing to a degree, but eventually you'll see those hitters "disappear" against better pitching. Also, if they continue to dumb down the bats and the balls it will require a good swing to hit the power shots you see now.

 

[Mark H]

What he said.

 

[Hitter]

I find it stressful on my knee joint to hit with a closed front foot, but then again I'm old. It's not the landing, it's the torque/rotational forces from the backside that hurts. As Dr. Marshall points out, the knees aren't designed to work that way. Factor in his emphasis that the muscles that support the knee of the typical female athlete aren't as strong/awake as a male athlete, and IMO there is potential for injury.

I haven't found an issue with either feet while in the stance. Have you? My personal preference is that both feet are close to square.

Wellphyt

I do not feel it is confrontational at all as WE are always looking to share information.

I use certified trainers and not physical therapist....let me explain please...I do not not want an injury to occur verses rehab after it occurs. So I try to understand what if anything I can do to prevent it.

We just did a clinic over the weekend in Warren Pa. and you could see a difference in the mechanics and that is not style.

The MLB bat waving high shoulder, narrow stance, high leg kick or wide stance etc we do not teach. Do we want the flat hands? Yes! And we eventually get them there as it is a work in progress.

Let me cover stance.

We start by measuring the shoulders width and lets say it was 16 inches wide and we divide that by half or start at twenty four inches and then I add in 20 years of data and add two inches or minus two inches from twenty four inches as a starting point.

We use the bat graphics and lay the knob of the bat at the lead foot toe and then find something on the bat that measures twenty six inches and go from there. I have probably measured 60 plus kids over the weekend and was correct in every situation. Most were all too narrow!

Let me say stance for me is at the beginning. We bend at the waist and soften the knees in that exact sequence. Now push on their chest and back and see if they are rocking back and forth on the toes or heels. If they do not then they are in my opinion balanced. Now pay close attention to the girl who bends at the waist and softens the knee and then becomes erect again at the waist and the core is not engaged.

Place a bat under their butt cheeks and they will feel and you will feel as if they are sitting on the bat. Now repeat and ask them to allow the knees to go more towards the toes and they will not sit on the bat and be balanced.

The kinesiologist term this sequential core loading and the certified trainers term it hip hinge angle.

The girls spine attachment and angle is different. The girls spines are more erect and the male is tilted forwarded. About 7 vertebrae up on the female it allows them to adjust the load for the baby during pregnancy. This is why they MUST be bent over further to be balanced from what we call our set position.

To test to see if bending at the waist first means anything, try it for yourself. Have your daughter or wife soften the knees first and then bend at the waist and see if you can push them over, so be careful when doing this as it only works one way.

We have found there is too much variation in the younger girls just learning the mechanics of the swing verses all the style that is injected so we try to keep it simple.

Our ready position is after we have measured off the plate and we assume our stance width and have selected a open/ closed or parallel stance based on getting a good two eyed look or turning our head towards the pitchers.

Think of looking through a pair of binoculars and then moving the binoculars away from the right eye (as a RH hitter). Would you see as well? Of course not so we want to turn our head far enough towards the pitcher and to not have any stress in the neck or shoulder muscles so they choose what makes them feel comfortable.

As the pitcher gets ready to start their motion, we bend at the waist, soften the knees, top of the bottom hand to the top of the shoulders and usually no higher than the ear hole of the helmet. Now think slow to load soft to step on a flexed front knee, with the knee cap pointing towards the direction of the second baseman's normal playing position.

The front foot heel is angled slightly back towards the catcher and the front foot is angled at about 45 to 50 degrees.

If you want to feel how much is too far open or closed in the hip simply stand belly button to belly button with your wife or daughter and hold their shoulders. Get them to pick their stance width and ask them to turn the , shoulders as if hitting, slowly with the foot opened towards the pitcher.

They will not be able to turn the shoulders and they will feel the leverage differences in the front hip Remember it is the knee direction NOT the foot direction that will make the difference. Now have them point the toe in the same direction as the back foot is turned. and you will bot be able to hold their shoulders from moving depending on their strength! Some where between 45 and 50 degrees seems to work pretty well for us. We are not open or closed! You can sit in a chair and articulate the foot and it only moves so far. Now rotate your knee cap and the leg moves in the hip socket so what is the true direction of reference? The knee cap or the foot?

For the girls who played basket ball at the clinic, we found them to have been told to guard their opponent with the more up right waist!

In order for to then move, they had to first bend at the waist more in order to move. A dad who coached basketball was there and could not believe the difference it made!

The male basketball coach did not know the difference either!

Ask you wife about carry angle in the female and see what she tells you as it is about 4 to 10 degrees different in males verses females.

Now combine that with balance, grip, breast size/ chest thickness and elbow clearance for the hip and it should all start to come together.

The hand path device when used correctly allows a visual concept to start and yes we promote the hand stacked over the elbow as we lower the back elbow and the hands start to flatten. I took 20 of these with me to the clinic and some of these parents do read what we have written and they said we get it now and saw the improvements in their daughters swing s in less than 6 hours.

The back hip movement for me is over rated, as I can take and did demonstrate to a 280 pound coach that with a two inch punch and the weight shifting on the inside back toe and the heel just clearing the ground, I could send the softball coach backwards about three to four feet. Now combine that with feet first, hips next and hands back we can pack a pretty good punch using a bat also.

Thanks Howard

 

[BoardMember]

Howard, I love reading your stuff..........BUT! Your KILLING MY EYES!..........

You've got to better paragraph a post as long as this one.......

They don't even have to be gramatically correct paragraphs (although that would help). Just hit "return" every 3 or 4 sentences to break this up visually........PLEEEEASE????

Wellphyt

I do not feel it is confrontational at all as WE are always looking to share information.

I use certified trainers and not physical therapist....let me explain please...I do not not want an injury to occur verses rehab after it occurs. So I try to understand what if anything I can do to prevent it. We just did a clinic over the weekend in Warren Pa. and you could see a difference in the mechanics and that is not style. The MLB bat waving high shoulder, narrow stance, high leg kick or wide stance etc we do not teach. Do we want the flat hands? Yes! And we eventually get them their as it is a work in progress.

Let me cover stance. We start by measuring the shoulders width and lets say it was 16 inches wide and we divide that by half or start at twenty four inches and then I add in 20 years of data and add two inches or minus two inches from twenty four inches as a starting point.We use the bat graphics and lay the knob of the bat at the lead foot toe and then find something on the bat that measures twenty six inches and go from there. I probably measured 60 plus kids this weekend and was correct in every situation. Most were all too narrow! Let me say stance for me is at the beginning. We bend at the waist and soften the knees in that exact sequence. Now push on their chest and back and see if they are rocking back and forth on the toes or heels. If they do not then they are in my opinion balanced. Now pay close attention to the girl who bends at the waist and softens the knee and then becomes erect again at the waist and the core is not engaged. Place a bat under their butt cheeks and they will feel and you will feel as if they are sitting on the bat. Now repeat and ask them to allow the knees to go more towards the toes and they will not sit on the bat and be balanced. The kinesiologist term this sequential core loading and the certified trainers term it hip hinge angle. The girls spine attachment and angle is different. The girls spines are more erect and the male is tilted forwarded. About 7 vertebrae up on the female it allows them to adjust the load for the baby during pregnancy. This is why they MUST be bent over further to be balanced from what we call our set position. To test to see if bending at the waist first means anything try it for yourself. Have your daughter or wife soften the knees first and then bend at the waist and see if you can push them over so be careful when doing this as it only works one way. We have found there is too much variation in the younger girls just learning the mechanics of the swing verses all the style that is injected so we try to keep it simple. Our ready position is after we have measured off the plate and we assume our stance width and have selected a open/ closed or parallel stance based on getting a good two eyed look or turning our head towards the pitchers. Think of looking through a pair of binoculars and then moving the binoculars away from the right eye (as a RH hitter). Would you see as well? Of course not so we want to turn our head far enough towards the pitcher and to not have any stress in the neck or shoulder muscles so they choose what makes them feel comfortable. As the pitcher gets ready to start their motion we bend at the waist soften the knees, top of the bottom hand to the top of the shoulders and usually no higher than the ear hole of the helmet, slow to load soft to step on a flexed front knee, with the knee cap pointing towards the direction the second baseman's normal playing position. The front foot heel is angled slightly back towards the catcher and the front foot is angled at about 45 to 50 degrees. If you want to feel how much is too far open or closed in the hip simply stand belly button to belly button with your wife or daughter and hold their shoulders. Get them to pick their stance width and ask them to turn the , shoulders as if hitting, slowly with the foot opened towards the pitcher.They will not be able to turn the shoulders and they will feel the leverage differences in the front hip Remember it is the knee direction NOT the foot direction that will make the difference. Now have them point the toe in the same direction as the back foot is turned. and you will bot be able to hold their shoulders from moving depending on their strength! Some where between 45 and 50 degrees seems to work pretty well for us. We are not open or closed! You can sit in a chair and articulate the foot and it only moves so far. Now rotate your knee cap and the leg moves in the hip socket so what is the true direction of reference? The knee cap or the foot?

For the girls who played basket ball at the clinic, we found them to have been told to guard their opponent with the more up right waist! In order for to then move they had to first bend at the waist more in order to move. A dad who coached basketball was there and could not believe the difference it made! The male basketball coach did not know the difference either! Ask you wife about carry angle in the female and see what she tells you as it is about 4 to 10 degrees different in males verses females. Now combine that with balance, grip, breast size/ chest thickness and elbow clearance for the hip and it should all start to come together. The hand path device when used correctly allows a visual concept to start and yes we promote the hand stacked over the elbow as we lower the back elbow and the hands start to flatten. I took 20 of these with me to the clinic and some of these parents do read what we have written and they said we get it now and saw the improvements in their daughters swing s in less than 6 hours.

The back hip movement for me is over rated as I can take and did demonstrate to a 280 pound coach that with a two inch punch and the weight shifting on the inside back toe and the heel just clearing the ground I sent the softball coach backwards about three to four feet. Now combine that with feet first, hips next and hands back we can pack a pretty good punch using a bat also.

Thanks Howard