Should we use MLB hitters as examples?

[FiveFrameSwing]

CB … you don’t claim to teach the MLB swing, but you do target the MLB swing when working with hitters. I don’t see anyone saying anything different. I’m not able to locate these posts where people claim to teach the MLB swing … but I do read several posts where people advocate the MLB pattern and attempt to work towards that goal.

 

[SnocatzDad]

I think the same argument can be made against using Crystal Bustos as an idealized teaching model. Most girls/women will never approach her strength. She may have a swing that's as effective for her as it is for a 80lb 10 year old, but it's hard to look at them apples to apples and break them down the same way. Show me a twig in college who is highly effective and powerful and let's break down her mechanics because she actually has to be effiicient to succeed whereas a powerhouse like Bustos could hit check swing home runs.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, I think I answered some of this in my post just before this one. The problem with going too deep into the MLB swing is it's far distant from the starting points of many of the players we all deal with. The core ideas are there, though, and that's why I don't think we should dismiss them out of hand.

I really just teach the core stuff and do so by putting an emphasis on the difference between style and substance. Style is stuff that a few good hitters do whereas substance is the stuff that every good hitter does.

A lot of the debates I get into involve people who IMO are selling as substance what is really just style.

I also believe the substance is the same between baseball and softball and the greater strength of males allows them to get away with style stuff that most females can't.

I wouldn't say we compromise. But we start with the big picture first and keep the discussion there. Get the major stuff done first and don't sweat the small stuff as much as many seem to. For example, make sure the hitter gets a load at all before worrying about her bat angle at load. Work the funnel of information from the wide end to the narrow end. But for the purposes of this forum, spend more time at the wide end since that's where you'll do the most good. Most people come to the hitting forum to figure out how to help their daughters or players hit the ball out of the infield, not to gain a deep technical knowledge of how MLB hitters hit.

I completely agree.

As I have said, I have one guy in the major leagues right now and another one in camp trying to stick there. One of the things that really struck me in working with my first guy was how far he got with just a few ideas and how getting into too much detail took him off track.

In my experience, working about one-frame micro movements is counterproductive.

However, so much of the debating revolves around this level; stuff that is not only a micro movement but is arguably style.

Agree that rotational hitting will produce better results than so-called linear hitting. But let's also keep in mind that those MLB hitters are pretty danged strong, with or without the steroids. Some of what they can do physically is the result of a more stable platform and more strength overall. Another 10-15 years' experience. Living in Chicago, I can tell you that I don't believe Sammy Sosa's swing changed all that much, but his output sure did. For a while.

As I said, the reason I like rotational stuff is that it focuses on areas of mutual strength (e.g. the muscles of the core). If you walk and run, then you have to have a basic level of core strength and my goal is to tap into that.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I have found that when I'm communicating with parents/players about "the high level" swing and I use my MLB examples some seem to be turned-off. It's almost like it is so ingrained into their heads that the swings are not related that they cannot accept any other possibilities. Even when I use my college/elite examples they do not see the connection between them and MLB.

How do I get these parents/coaches/players on board?

Sometimes you can't.

I have a great library of major league swings that some people (both girls and their parents) could care less about. For various reasons, even though it's exactly the same movement, a lot of girls won't believe it until they see a girl doing it.

As a result, my big project for this spring is to attend a lot of FP games. I'm going to see Mizzou at SIUE next Wednesday and hopefully will catch ULL in Fayetteville at the end of next week.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I think the same argument can be made against using Crystal Bustos as an idealized teaching model. Most girls/women will never approach her strength. She may have a swing that's as effective for her as it is for a 80lb 10 year old, but it's hard to look at them apples to apples and break them down the same way. Show me a twig in college who is highly effective and powerful and let's break down her mechanics because she actually has to be effiicient to succeed whereas a powerhouse like Bustos could hit check swing home runs.

One clip that I have compares Kelley Montalvo of Bama, who's a 5'0" fireplug with a nice swing (really THE swing), with Matt Holliday.

They are pretty close.

 

[mkral]

I am just a coach. Not a pitching coach, not a hitting coach, just an all around coach. I am trying to learn as I go for the sake of the game and for the sake of the kids. Not unlike Cannonball I too have a young girl with a plaque on her wall that reads "Dream It, Learn It, Live It...Team USA!". She made this when she was 9. She is 13 now and has not given up on that dream. She could care less about MLB. I too get in with some MLB players with the work I do but she does not care. Her dreams are with the Cat's, Finch's, & Bustos' of the world. She is at a point in her life where she is giving up other sports now to focus more on her dream, softball.

Now for my belief....There are people who can express and teach, there are some who cannot. There are some on this sight that are unbelievably helpful and we are in danger of losing them I am afraid. They explain things with very well written posts and will at times include video's or GIF's to help others understand. Then someone who seems to have the proverbial know it all attitude will jump on and knit pick a portion of a video and not the content it was intended for at all, those for some reason always seem to be the ones who throw out the MLB stuff. Video's of MLB swings will not interest my girls. They simply do not care. They do not relate to them nor do they want to. There are a lot of differences between the male and female body that has been posted time and time again and done very well (thanks Howard!!). Male and female mindset is very different as well. How they are taught needs to be different at a very transitional time in their lives, as girls change into young women. So if you are going to show MLB swings show me those players at age 12, 14, 16, etc. Maybe my girls could relate then. Oh wait then they would not be MLB players...my bad. I am not saying they are not great players. Ask AP to hit a Finch riseball. Can he? Who knows and that is the "BEST SWING IN THE WORLD" according to most. IT IS DIFFERENT....THEY ARE DIFFERENT....THEY SHOULD BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY. There will be similarities but they are not the same. The pitches move differently fastpitch moves side to side, down, up, and all over. The Rise is what sets it apart from baseball. So should not the hitting technique be a somewhat different?

IMHO this site is called SOFTBALL PERFORMANCE not MLB PERFORMANCE for a reason and I would like to see it stay like that with the great teachers and coaches that are on here now, ie Howard, John, Ken, Gerry, etc the list goes on & on.

Sorry for rambling.

 

[Tewks]

I am confused by what I read on this forum regarding the baseball swing and the softball swing. I get a feel from some that BSB and SB mechanics are the same, but then different. I think using MLB clips of the best hitters in the world can only help to display mechanics - especially for visual learners. One can dig deeper as needed and according to your beliefs. I completely disagree with the argument that 12 yr old girls can't do what a MLB can do. Are we talking process or results? A 12 yr old girl cannot hit a 95 mph fastball 400 ft +... but in all reality how many people on this planet can? They can learn mechanics, learn how to work through the failure and develop mechanically sound, repeatable swings. Video, training equipment, top coaching, etc can help, but you need reps and a solid base of knowledge.

I talk about the "why" with my players. If you can teach a player why a certain mechanic is performed and the player can reteach this while understanding all of the opposing views, they will have the knowledge to work with. I encourage players to ask questions - to force me to explain why. To understand, see and feel deeper. When I show a MLB swing, I am digging into the why. I search to explain what I couldn't explain in my own swings from my career and swings I see MLB players take that didn't make sense. The "How did he do that??" swing. I wish I had more SB players to look at.

IMO, swing mechanics can be as simple or as deep as you make them. In games, it is see the ball hit the ball. In training, it is why, it is process, it is feel. I certainly believe a youth SB player can understand the why and the process of an MLB swing and also begin to get a feel for that swing. I believe this has less to do with anatomical differences and more to do with getting reps and questioning instruction to gain deeper knowledge.

 

[WinThemAll]

What a great discussion. This is why I read this board pretty faithfully!

Even though I prefer to use female examples for female athletes sometimes they are few and far between. But if I tell a parent to refer to a MLB player, it is because that the parent is familiar with that player and just maybe that reference will help them understand a little better.

I really agree about approaching female hitters a little differently than male, but sometimes you even have to do it more on an individual level--what works for one player does not work with another.

Eons ago, when I played HS softball, I had a coach that kept yelling at me "to tuck them in" when I was hitting. Talk about embarrassing a 16-year old! I am just glad that some people do recognize that there are more similarities than differences.

 

[Ken Krause]

I think some of this comes down to how different people learn. There are some pretty well established learning patterns in the teaching world. Some people need to hear the words. Some need to see the example. Some need to perform the action to get it.

In this case, there's a brewing argument over whether someone's players can relate to male BB players. I think that's easily solved. If they can learn that way, use it. If they can't learn that way, don't. To be honest, I look at MLB players' swings all the time but I don't think I've ever shown more than one or two of those clips to my players or students, and even then it was a select few. I would rather learn it myself then demonstrate it as a teaching tool. If I use a clip, it's to show that I'm not just making it up myself but not as the primary tool.

From my point of view, the MLB clips are there to help me understand and learn, not my players or students. Teaching them is my job and I take it seriously. If I thought I could help those kids add 50 points to their batting average by watching ballet I would.

Quite frankly I usually just skip over the posts that become too arcane or filled with minutae although these days I at least have to skim them all to make sure they are staying within the spirit of the forum.

Hope that makes sense. Yes, we are talking softball here, but as Mark H put it so eloquently, hitting a ball is hitting a ball. I'd bet there are things we can learn from tennis players if someone knows how to make the correlation. They're also hitting a 100 mph ball at times that they have to react to. You put it up and I'll gladly read it -- as long as it's in the context of what softball hitters can learn from it. So in this example, using the body to generate power instead of relying on the arms is good, but learning how to read the bounce before hitting the ball is useless (unless you want your hitters hitting balls that bounce in front of the plate).

The purpose of this forum isn't to promote any particular point of view or help people build a grand reputation. It's to help fastpitch softball players learn to hit better -- whatever it takes. Post in that spirit and everyone will be happy. Read the posts that help you and disregard those that don't and you'll be happy too.

One last thing. The swing is only one component of the overall goal for hitting excellence. Keep the bigger picture in mind. I've seen my fair share of kids who look good going down swinging.

 

[ifubuildit]

A big difference - The ability to learn quickly.

While Howard had made many points about the differences between boys and girls there is one he hasnt really talked about much and its one that IMO makes a huge difference. The ability to focus and retain what they are taught. Give me a female any day of the week, month, year and if she has the desire to play the game she will absorb everything you teach her like a sponge and retain it.

I have both boys and girls and by far the girls will learn and perform faster and understand much better than the boys. The boy will let what your teaching them go in one ear and out the other. They will not retain what you teach them and then when you test them on it they look at you like your an alien. Not all of them are like that but the male mindset is just let me come in and swing the bat and leave. I dont actually want to learn anything about hitting. They will do what you tell them to do but to get them to practice and retain it. Good luck.

So when the boys find out I am serious about them learning what I teach and then I tell them they are going to be tested a whole other expression comes across their face. Something akin to "You cant be serious" Well..... Yes I am.