Should we use MLB hitters as examples?

[Ken Krause]

Exactly, JC Heir. There aren't any style points in softball. You don't lose a base for your swing not being technically correct, and no one deducts a tenth of a point because your elbow dropped below the acceptable angle. On the field, it's do or do not. The ball doesn't care what swing you use.

That doesn't mean you don't need to work on it. I'm a firm believer that the better your swing, the better your chances of hitting the ball are. (I know, I know. Duh!) But wherever you are when you step into the box, that's the swing you have to execute to the best of your ability. You can fix the rest later.

One other thought for those who might be skeptical about using MLB hitters to describe or demonstrate principles. I don't think we should limit it that way. I know in teaching pitching and hitting, I will sometimes refer to the martial arts, particularly throwing a punch, to explain either what to do or why. I've seen John Tschida at the University of St. Thomas do the same, only with more expertise than I have. There are all kinds of physical models we can use to illustrate points -- as long as we remember the audience.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Enjoyed the last two posts.

Use what you have and strive to continuously improve.

Not a bad philosophy ....

 

[Cannonball]

Ken, the problem is that while the video can serve a positive purpose, you open a can of worms with regards to members stating that they know exactly how MLB players hit. None, or not many posters here, have coached players at the MLB level. I've coached 16 and soon to be 17 players who have gone on to play professional ball. I've coached, in other venues such as all star games, tune up bp, batting practice ... some others that have spent considerable time in MLB. Yet, I'd never suggest that I teach a MLB swing and that is the rub you will find. I know several new posters not only claim to do so, they also have a habit of putting down softball instruction since, in their opinion it does not measure up to them. Good thing that they are flexiable or they'd break their arms patting themselves on the back.

Ken, I might add that it has been stated on this site in the last day that there are no elite hitters in fastpitch. Well, many of us coach girls and know that when you put up video of a MLB player including Pujols, they will watch but put up video of Mendoza or Bustos or Finch or Cochran, they really pay attention. They don't need to hear that their idols don't measure up to some basebal person's elevated opinion that MLB players are superior.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

CB …. I may be mistaken, but I recall you telling me that you do compare video of kids you work with to MLB hitters. From my perspective, the implication was that you were attempting to migrate your hitters towards the MLB pattern. Why else would you make the comparisons?

 

[KYFastpitch]

I have found that when I'm communicating with parents/players about "the high level" swing and I use my MLB examples some seem to be turned-off. It's almost like it is so ingrained into their heads that the swings are not related that they cannot accept any other possibilities. Even when I use my college/elite examples they do not see the connection between them and MLB.

How do I get these parents/coaches/players on board?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

If you believe that the baseball and fastpitch swings are the same, then communicate that.

Supply them with a video of folks like Mike Candrea and Sue Enquist stating that the swings are basically the same. I believe you'll find that many other recognized fastpitch D-1 coaches believe the same thing.

 

[KYFastpitch]

Thanks Five,

It's still early with some of these parents/players, I got to remember to stay consistent and patient. I just can't believe that some people are so set in their ways that they cannot accept or acknowledge other ways of doing something. It reminds me of "the Earth is flat" syndrome.

 

[Hitter]

Ken, the problem is that while the video can serve a positive purpose, you open a can of worms with regards to members stating that they know exactly how MLB players hit. None, or not many posters here, have coached players at the MLB level. I've coached 16 and soon to be 17 players who have gone on to play professional ball. I've coached, in other venues such as all star games, tune up bp, batting practice ... some others that have spent considerable time in MLB. Yet, I'd never suggest that I teach a MLB swing and that is the rub you will find. I know several new posters not only claim to do so, they also have a habit of putting down softball instruction since, in their opinion it does not measure up to them. Good thing that they are flexiable or they'd break their arms patting themselves on the back.

Ken, I might add that it has been stated on this site in the last day that there are no elite hitters in fastpitch. Well, many of us coach girls and know that when you put up video of a MLB player including Pujols, they will watch but put up video of Mendoza or Bustos or Finch or Cochran, they really pay attention. They don't need to hear that their idols don't measure up to some basebal person's elevated opinion that MLB players are superior.

The comments have been very thought out in this thread! Most of our girls at 16 know how to drive a car so do we turn them loose to drive in the Daytona 500 because they know where the brake and gas pedal is located? Like the bumper sticker proclaims, "I am not tailgating I am drafting, NASCAR rules apply!" Probably not! When I see an MLB player swing there are many things I see that are common to Bustos swing and I will let you decide what is common to the MLB player and what is not. Now how do I teach her the 10, 11, 12 year girl how to do what USA TODAY claims is the most difficult thing in sports to do and that is to hit a round object with a round object! Unless the girls played baseball with the boys there are a lot of skills that are missing from the girls just getting started. Now lets throw in a couple differences....spine attachment and angle differences, narrower and round shoulders, carrying angle of the girls elbow, wider hips, however flatter and thin in structure, knees more under them causing the Q angle differences, ham string is not as balanced as to the male knee causing ACL issues, front of foot is usually wider however heel of foot is narrower. Another item usually not understood with the girls is breast and chest thickness in the girls as it is an issue in some of our girls as the MUST clear their hip however as we can get them to feel the power difference when it is in too close and if it is away too far by just pulling on a rope. Just seeing the MLB player swing and now tell your girls go do it and it should look like this and feel like what? How do you translate how it feels Mr. Male Coach? Having worked with Crystl for nearly 9 years now I have learned how to teach to get them to feel it. When you get a chance ask an elite female how it feels when the get balanced, load, stride, separate the hands rearward while landing on the inside edge of the lead foot on a flexed knee. By working with Topping, Berg, Jung, Finch, Lowe I was able to ask what it was they were doing and what it feels like. In my opinion and Ken pointed this out very well, we miss what we think we see as soon as it comes down to showing a girl because we do not understand what they feel or know. Can they use a hammer, a simple $7 dollar hammer and drive a 16 P nail in 4 strokes? We even show them leverage using a 2 x 4 and a block of wood. I bet them I can lift them with one hand and they say no way coach! Then I do it by pushing on the board and up they go! Then I explain the board is a lever and so is the bat and how we grip the bat/ lever can make a difference in the force we apply to the ball with the bat. Then we show them how to use a hammer! We explain the wrist and elbow are hinges like on a door and the forearm is a lever and try to get them to understand it is simple by using whatever means gets them to understand it. The connector and hand path device no matter how poorly demonstrated got the concept in her mind and you pointed out how well her swing looked verses how she demonstrated the usage. That in and of it self may me smile as you saw see was getting it.

Ken John and I are friends and we have exchanged many ideas on using martial art as a way to teach. I took two years of before heading into the Navy back in 68 and the balance we were taught was first and foremost the most important aspect of basic understanding of how our body works when doing a complicated move. My wife is an RN in OBGYN so I have a lot of material to read and sources available. I have people at Children's Hospital Cincinnati Sports Med as I use as resources on drills etc so I can find out if the drill will or can hurt my girls. John teaches kick boxing at St. Thomas and we were talking about using our martial arts as to punching and pulling the glove in to add additional force when throwing the ball. John said he ties the kick boxers hands behind them to isolate the lower half of the body for balance techniques. He asked me to try what he has done by having a girl throw with their hands behind their back so they just feel the legs and hips and what their shoulders must do without using the arms or hands. Same thing with hitting when your hands are behind your back. A lot can be learned when you work with other people who have a common interest in teaching and do not have a paradigm of it only works one way.

I keep hearing about the golf swing and let me regress slightly...Tiger Woods is teeing off and a photographer is using his camera to take a series of shots and Tiger turns around and says come on guys can't you see I am teeing off! I will have you removed if you do it again! Wow! I bet AP would make a great golfer as he can stand in front of drunk fans, yelling and screaming, flash bulbs going off and facing a ball that is going 90 MPH and never loose focus and hit it out of the park! That is all I need to know about the golf swing. Give me someone I can relate to to teach a kid who knows nothing about a swing and has to hit a moving ball and then we have something to talk about!

One last story...I worked with a person last night using Skypes an on line real time video service for 1 hour and 25 minutes.I could see her and she could see me. He had made the connector and hand path device and had a cut off bat handle and a rubber cord in it. She hit a few balls and basically pulled everything and had a poor weight shift and poor balance and no hand separation. When we were done she could hit the ball exactly up the middle into our zone and then we worked on her hitting the outside pitch with authority. During the outside lesson I stopped to get in the throwing technique and after about 15 minutes she was throwing much harder and we went back to the outside pitch and dad was all excited as was she.

I never showed her one picture of an MLB swing or brought up golf....but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn before!

Ken and Cannon Ball if you get paid for this it is not enough!

Thanks Howard

 

[Cannonball]

Howard, I'm just a poster. I speak from the experience of a Dad. My daughter has a 6 foot tall replica of Jenny Finch in her room. She has a board with Bustos, Jung, Whatley, etc. and naturally herself on her board with the caption, "THE DREAM!" It broke my heart that the Olympics have decided to take softball out. Millions of young ladies like my daughter have dreamed that dream. It motivates my child to get out and work. She has met most of the latest Olympic Team and we watched them play at a couple of venues. She stood in a line once for about 45 minutes to get to meet Jenny Finch. We were not able, as parents to deny her that even though it meant we were late for another important engagement.

My daughter wants me to use Bustos when we watch video. BB is a taller girl almost 6 foot now and hits for power. She wants to form her swing after Bustos but also loves Mendoza. Not bat people or players for her to copy. BTW, I also use MLB video all the time. I hope all get the point that girls and boys are different in who comprise their idols. Naturally, my daughter loves Pujols since we are big Cardinals fans and I get special favors from the Cardinals. However, when it comes to watching a baseball game at home, she won't. When it comes to watching college softball, the CWS, or Team USA, she watches everything she can. That's a dad's take on this.

 

[Cannonball]

FFS, I just saw your post. It isn't that I don't approve of using MLB swings in instruction. It is that I disapprove of some of the critique of those that work with girls everyday and at high levels by those professing to teach something that, I feel they can not verify that they instruct. In other words, I am looking for the MLB seal of approval by those professing to know and teach the MLB swing. As you know, I profess to attempt to teach a high level swing. I'm not going to profess more. I don't appreciate the attacks on "girl's swings." I do appreciate use of elite female players as examples as well as the participation of those on this site that contribute to expanding the knowledge base of what people do at the elite level from THEIR first hand knowledge.