Riseball spin

[FiveFrameSwing]

So is it a "riseball" if a pitcher throws a dropball pitch high in the zone (on purpose or not)? I say, "Nope!"

Is it a "riseball" if a pitcher throws a perfect bullet spin high in the zone (on purpose or not)? I say, "Nope!"

Is it a "riseball" if a pitcher throws a strike low in the strike zone that has back spin? I say, "YES!"

It's the spin of the ball that determines whether or not the pitch is a "riseball" pitch, not where the pitch ends up. Whether or not the "riseball" pitch ended up where the pitcher intended to throw it is another thing.

A 'riseball' pitch thrown either 'high' in the zone or 'low' in the zone has an expected 'profile'.

From my perspective, the reason people should be working on spin is to achieve a particular pitch profile. I therefore wouldn't recommend NOT analyzing the 'result' of what one is attempting to achieve.

I'm completely serious when I say I've seen folks get worse while working on achieving high rates of spin via feedback of revfire measurements. I've seen them record high spin rates through a lot of hard work .... yet lose significant pitch speed while realizing unimpressive pitch profiles. Don't let 'spin rate' be your overriding goal.

 

[Doug Romrell]

Also....

Clearly a pitch can be thrown such that the catcher can see backward spin but the pitch is closer to a perfect bullet spin than a perfect backward spin.

In other words, there's a perfect backward spin pitch (axis perpendicular to the catcher), then there's a perfect bullet-spin pitch (axis pointed straight at the catcher). Of course, then there's everything in between.

I believe it is rare to see a perfect bullet spin. That is, I think it is much more common for a pitch that looks like a bullet spin to be a pitch where the axis of the ball is pointed more forward than it is perpendicular to the catcher, but it is tilted and pointed to the right or left of the catcher.

I believe it is very rare to see a perfect back-spin where the axis is perpendicular to the catcher. That is, I think it is nearly always the case that a pitch thrown with back-spin has an axis that is tilted away from being perpendicular to the catcher.

Given these observations, I would say that most pitchers who throw a real "riseball" achieve some noticeable backspin from the catcher's perspective. However, if a dot were drawn on both sides of the ball showing the axis, the catcher would also be able to see one of those dots, indicating the axis of the pitch is not perpendicular to the catcher. Now depending on how much that axis is turned, the person observing the pitch from behind the plate (catcher or bystander) might see the axis pointing more forward than being perpendicular (i.e., can barely see back-spin, but the axis of the ball is turned a lot). One might conclude this pitch is a bullet spin pitch, yet it one can tell there is back-spin to it. Maybe we think of that as a weak riseball.

What about the pitch where the axis is only turned a little and one can really see the back-spin. Even though the pitch isn't a 6-12 rotation, it's almost that. Maybe we think of this as a near-perfect riseball.

I dunno.

 

[Doug Romrell]

A 'riseball' pitch thrown either 'high' in the zone or 'low' in the zone has an expected 'profile'.

From my perspective, the reason people should be working on spin is to achieve a particular pitch profile. I therefore wouldn't recommend NOT analyzing the 'result' of what one is attempting to achieve.

I'm completely serious when I say I've seen folks get worse while working on achieving high rates of spin via feedback of revfire measurements. I've seen them record high spin rates through a lot of hard work .... yet lose significant pitch speed while realizing unimpressive pitch profiles. Don't let 'spin rate' be your overriding goal.

Oh, I agree with that. But that isn't what we are discussing here, is it?

 

[Rick Pauly]

Ok CJ.....just back from a long week of softball. I am up for the challenge and will try to get something posted today.

I believe if someone with a 600+fps camera could video a series riseballs thrown by multiple pitchers with the chinese jump ropes. One set of ropes set out in front and the second sitting closer to the plate at a higher level. With this we could see spin, axis, and movement (if any)
Who among us, with access to one of these cameras, can make this video happen? I for one nominate Rick and Sarah. Can I get a second?

 

[Doug Romrell]

Just being Devils advocate here Doug, always like reading your stuff. If we are referring to spin only and not ball trajectory at all.What would separate a flip change and a rise ball? same spin.

Good point!

Maybe it's the pitcher's riseball pitch if she's throwing back-spin and it's not one of her change-ups.

Look, I think the names we have for these pitches are somewhat bad names. Of course, we weren't the ones who named them.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

Just based on the 5 games I watched this weekend, most batters were laying off the high pitches and they were not being called a strike. Conversely, the outside and inside of the strike zone was more generous.

If I were to "recap" my watching of the riseball over the years my DD has been in TB - here is what I have generally seen:

Less than 14U batters are eager and willing to swing at a high fastball. TRUE & FAKE riseballers get somewhat equal attention from the masses calling their riseball "effective".

Somewhere in 14U TB-A national events you start to see the great batting teachings and experience come out and a parent of their once great riseballer will now see their DD throw this FAKE riseball over and over to a team of batters that just stand there without even making a flinch (automatic "ball" from umpires). Then they wonder why.....

Then what is also just as amazing is when these great batters, that are now in their 18U stage in their careers, overconfidently come against a TRUE riseballer and they get absolutely confounded by their inability to hold back OR hammer the TRUE riseball.

So Yes I am calling out the extreme cases. There will still be FAKE riseballers (that haven't been embarrased enough by great hitting teams) entering college thinking they have a riseball when they really don't.....

That's my take on the college and younger world of riseballs and their use.

 

[Rocketech1]

I strongly believe that a thrown ball with seams can go through some crazy dynamics and the best explanation I have seen so far are those crazy dynamics presented by the forces produced (and at times somewhat randomly) by the Reynolds flow of the ball moving through matter.......In my little mind, ONLY through consideration of another set of non-Magnus forces, can we put to rest things that I think I see from time to time from "special" pitchers where the ball dramatically appears to have late break or "jumps".

I think you have been drinking Hal's kool aid when he swears that he has seen some "special" pitches where the ball actually stops in mid-flight for several seconds and changes direction.

 

[Doug Romrell]

Well, look like we finally have a true pitching expert here in Rick Pauly, not to take away from the expertise of some of you others. Let's sit back and be edified. I'm sure I'll have to change my thinking somewhat after he provides his insight. I'll grab some popcorn and a drink and sit back and enjoy.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

Just based on the 5 games I watched this weekend, most batters were laying off the high pitches and they were not being called a strike. Conversely, the outside and inside of the strike zone was more generous.

If I were to "recap" my watching of the riseball over the years my DD has been in TB - here is what I have generally seen:

Less than 14U batters are eager and willing to swing at a high fastball. TRUE & FAKE riseballers get somewhat equal attention from the masses calling their riseball "effective".

Somewhere in 14U TB-A national events you start to see the great batting teachings and experience come out and a parent of their once great riseballer will now see their DD throw this FAKE riseball over and over to a team of batters that just stand there without even making a flinch (automatic "ball" from umpires). Then they wonder why.....

Then what is also just as amazing is when these great batters, that are now in their 18U stage in their careers, overconfidently come against a TRUE riseballer and they get absolutely confounded by their inability to hold back OR hammer the TRUE riseball.

So Yes I am calling out the extreme cases. There will still be FAKE riseballers (that haven't been embarrased enough by great hitting teams) entering college thinking they have a riseball when they really don't.....

That's my take on the college and younger world of riseballs and their use.

 

[JJsqueeze]

Well, look like we finally have a true pitching expert here in Rick Pauly, not to take away from the expertise of some of you others. Let's sit back and be edified. I'm sure I'll have to change my thinking somewhat after he provides his insight. I'll grab some popcorn and a drink and sit back and enjoy.