Pitch counts in softball?

[Rocketech1]

I also don’t understand why a RF can’t be pulled in to pitch(like in baseball). I’m certainly not a FPS rules expert, but I never heard of a rule that says players can’t change fielding positions.

Sure, in softball a right fielder or 1st baseman CAN enter the circle to pitch BUT they would be completely ineffective if they were not also one of the PITCHERS on the team that is practicing regularly. In baseball, at the younger levels (8, 9, 10YO) you could certainly bring in another player to throw fastballs only and be somewhat effective for an inning or two. In fastpitch, it's impossible because the preliminaries and arm circle motion is so unusual that no one can just come in with very little, if any, practice and throw strikes. At least, I have never seen it...

 

[dmaeganx2]

First step is to eliminate the dragging of the push foot rule.

I absolutely can not stand the potential for knee stress and injuries to the knees I see in this action in the pitching motion. It is the reason I never complain about leapers when I see them in my DD's games ...

 

[JJsqueeze]

I am wishy washy on this. I think inning limits are great in theory, I think the game could use some awareness on this front. I think the dominant thinking is that the motion is safe and that is a fallacy as any motion can lead to injury due to overuse. At the same time I see most coaches making good decisions and not riding young kids game after game so I am not sure it is really that common to do so. But then I watched Nunley last year and Carda this year get ridden to uselessness in the WCWS. So I am a complete waffler.

I do think Gunner's point about the pitching rules and maybe opening them up a bit so pitching is not such a difficult thing to learn is a good idea. It is such a specific skill that if a kid is not specifically trained to do it and trained A LOT then they have no chance of being even moderately effective.

So the idea of inning limits and a more forgiving rule set is interesting, but I also kind of like the idea of deadening the bats a little so that more pitchers can be more effective to relieve the pressure to pitch the best pitchers as often as possible.

Tough nut to crack and without anything definitive it will most likely be resolved like all other issues seem to get resolved in our wonderful nation these days...via class action lawsuit

 

[Rocketech1]

I am wishy washy on this. I think inning limits are great in theory, I think the game could use some awareness on this front. I think the dominant thinking is that the motion is safe and that is a fallacy as any motion can lead to injury due to overuse. At the same time I see most coaches making good decisions and not riding young kids game after game so I am not sure it is really that common to do so. But then I watched Nunley last year and Carda this year get ridden to uselessness in the WCWS. So I am a complete waffler.

I do think Gunner's point about the pitching rules and maybe opening them up a bit so pitching is not such a difficult thing to learn is a good idea. It is such a specific skill that if a kid is not specifically trained to do it and trained A LOT then they have no chance of being even moderately effective.

So the idea of inning limits and a more forgiving rule set is interesting, but I also kind of like the idea of deadening the bats a little so that more pitchers can be more effective to relieve the pressure to pitch the best pitchers as often as possible.

Tough nut to crack and without anything definitive it will most likely be resolved like all other issues seem to get resolved in our wonderful nation these days...via class action lawsuit

And to piggy back this thought about lessening the rules for pitchers; go read the "Showing Up the Blue" thread where umpires are not calling a high strike that is higher than the "belly button" (even though the rule book says otherwise) and you wonder why kids are reluctant to take up pitching just to get called an "illegal" pitcher, shrinking strike zones, numerous home runs and extra base hits played on 350 foot slowpitch fields without fences, stigma about wearing a mask, hot composite bats, fewer strike outs, now pitching at 43 feet in 14U, and over pitched young players on travel ball teams where coaches are more concerned about hardware than player development.

Off my soap box now...

 

[JJsqueeze]

And to piggy back this thought about lessening the rules for pitchers; go read the "Showing Up the Blue" thread where umpires are not calling a high strike that is higher than the "belly button" (even though the rule book says otherwise) and you wonder why kids are reluctant to take up pitching just to get called an "illegal" pitcher, shrinking strike zones, numerous home runs and extra base hits played on 350 foot slowpitch fields without fences, stigma about wearing a mask, hot composite bats, fewer strike outs, now pitching at 43 feet in 14U, and over pitched young players on travel ball teams where coaches are more concerned about hardware than player development.

Off my soap box now...

preach on brother!! I am with you on every point. To quote a movie song.....It's hard out there for a pi......tcher.

 

[Scorekeeper]

No rule against it, it is just the softball pitch is a learned motion, not a natural throwing motion. I believe Wasserman once said that a baseball pitch it is just throwing with perfect mechanics and no time limit or something similar.

Our RF can't throw the ball over the plate using a fastpitch motion. Not a chance - and she (and many of her teammates) have tried over the years. Just not them.

My DD played her first baseball game a season or so ago. She pitched in her first game having never done it before even in practice and was able to throw strikes. It is just throwing. Was it the mechanics you would want from a baseball pitcher? Probably not - however she could throw it well enough to keep the game moving and get batters out without it becoming a walk fest.

You’re argument is very much like the one baseball coaches were using when LLI went to pitch counts. But the truth is, every player on the team is eligible to pitch, and the best coaches don’t just ride the “best” pitchers, they do everything they can to develop more pitchers. I assume you have at least 12 players on your team. So why is it you only have one pitcher? The FP motion isn’t impossible to learn.

 

[Scorekeeper]

Wow gotta understand the basics...thinking you can just pull in your RF to pitch have you even been around the game (softball) you said you are a baseball guy but I would assume you have some ties to softball, but any girl who has never pitched in the circle and it just does not work, it would take days just to get them to not have the umpire call illegal pitches, weeks to get them to actually not walk the entire line up, then months to have a hope of them consistently throwing the ball around the plate. In baseball any player can come in and throw the ball around the plate.

Well, I wouldn’t be so foolish as to pull in a player who had never pitched, be it BB or SB. However, I would make sure I had more choices than a kid who’d never pitched before.

So since you said you are a baseball guy ask yourself this question how many pitchers do you know or have you heard of that have had problems with their throwing arm now ask yourself how many softball pitchers you have heard of with arm problems, the percentage just does not even come close to being comparable and given the softball pitchers pitch more innings if the theory held you would expect more softball pitcher with arm issues.

What does how many injuries there are in baseball have to do with anything, and how does anyone really know how many softball pitcher injuries there are? All I did was read the article and it made sense to me that it would be a good thing to at least consider the issue.

 

[smddad]

With my DD I have found that once she becomes fatigued her pitching motion starts to break down, and bad mechanics can lead to injury.

And not just fatigue related injury. They get tired and many start to throw down the middle. Then the hits can start coming right back at them.

 

[JJsqueeze]

You’re argument is very much like the one baseball coaches were using when LLI went to pitch counts. But the truth is, every player on the team is eligible to pitch, and the best coaches don’t just ride the “best” pitchers, they do everything they can to develop more pitchers. I assume you have at least 12 players on your team. So why is it you only have one pitcher? The FP motion isn’t impossible to learn.

Scorekeeper....forgive my bluntness please....but your ignorance of travel softball and the rarity of effective pitching is really showing. Coaches are not involved in pitcher development at all. All they do is recruit the best pitching they can get their hands on. Good pitchers are so rare that often fees are waived, practice schedules become optional, it is truly crazy. All because there is a real shortage of quality pitchers. You cannot take a kid and teach them how to pitch within the context of a team practice. You need a family to fully support a pitcher's development and sign up to finding a way to train them outside of practice. Then you would need a coach patient enough to let her get crushed for about a year before you see dividends.

The first year of the 12U/14U level is a feeding frenzy of hitting where all but the best pitchers get absolutely crushed by great hitting teams. If your kid is lucky enough to be able to neutralize lineups then she has to deal with the constant sales pitches to join different teams. It is crazy SH*T. All because the game is so tilted offensively that good pitchers are simply hunted to extinction and gobbled up by better teams and once they are 13 or 14 they are so far ahead of a girl that might want to pick up and try it that it makes the idea of "starting" pitching at 13 or 14 really daunting to a non pitcher. Realistically by 12 years old, almost every girl that is going to wind up a pitcher is already pitching from there on out it is just a weeding out process to see how many will improve enough to be the lucky ones standing in college. A big part of this is that the lions share of circle time goes to 2 pitchers on every team sometimes one pitcher. I think the game would benefit greatly from changes that would make it realistic for a kid to pick up pitching at 15 or 16 and still have a shot.

What you are hearing from all us pitching dads is that it is out of whack and we would like to see it evened out a little so that more pitchers could succeed in the game. Think about that....we are saying that we want MORE competition for our daughters by having the pitching pool expanded via some method. That speaks volumes to how out of whack it is.

 

[MNDad]

S

Wow gotta understand the basics...thinking you can just pull in your RF to pitch have you even been around the game (softball) you said you are a baseball guy but I would assume you have some ties to softball, but any girl who has never pitched in the circle and it just does not work, it would take days just to get them to not have the umpire call illegal pitches, weeks to get them to actually not walk the entire line up, then months to have a hope of them consistently throwing the ball around the plate. In baseball any player can come in and throw the ball around the plate.

So since you said you are a baseball guy ask yourself this question how many pitchers do you know or have you heard of that have had problems with their throwing arm now ask yourself how many softball pitchers you have heard of with arm problems, the percentage just does not even come close to being comparable and given the softball pitchers pitch more innings if the theory held you would expect more softball pitcher with arm issues.

The percentage of pitchers people have heard of with baseball/softball injuries has no bearing given there are several times more baseball pitchers than softball pitchers. You'd have to figure out the ratio of injured softball pitchers to those that didn't experience injuries and use the same comparison to baseball. My guess is the numbers are more similiar than people think.