Jen Schroeder - The Packaged Deal

[Greenmonsters]

Well I didn't think I was being irrational.

Quote from Jen,
"Personally, I know I am faster from a lower squat, get more strikes for my pitcher's and am more athletic and mobile from this position." My daughter is the same way, my daughters pops times went up, I may get into that a little later.
Another Quote from Jen,
The concerning part was pain, so I began to do a little research. What I learned was that because of the differences in a male to female's hips, girls have more pressure on their shins-this is called tibia torsion. What tibia torsion does is put more pressure on a girl's knee caps. I went and spoke with 2 different sports doctors at UCLA who explained in detail why a female will complain about their backs, knees, and hips. It was eye opening.
I'm sure it was the same talk by the sounds of it I had with Dr.Cole(Chicago Bulls and Cubs doc),which is top expert in cartridge reconstruction in the knee. Which BTW my kid had done a little over a year ago on her knee and due to how she squated in the past not because there using different muscles and being sore .

A quote form you earlier this thread,

"Admittedly, I don't buy buy that physical differences between males and females and the scale of the BB/FP games merit significantly different mechanical approaches, so my bottom line question would be why would I want my DD to learn JSchro mechanics when it takes no more effort to learn Posey or Lucroy mechanics?"
I didn't respond to your last Question in thread "2nd base throw down" because I figured your mind was made and I'd be wasting time, so I'll lump it in here all together because its all in the same. So here is the quote

Quote Originally Posted by C.K View Post
I agree some can teach and some can't.

You can't compare the two, men and women are built way differently thank god. A lot transfers over but men are able to generate greater amounts of power from their upper body. But I agree study the best and them both just don't lump the men and women together.
Your response:
Doesn't this make it even more important for the ladies to use the most efficient techniques?

Some one said I left out "science" so I'll bring it in here. To answer your Question. Yup, but again we are built different structurally its science, no way around it. Men and women however generate force the same way. However women don't have the luxury of being able to generate large amounts of force with their upper body like men. Which they must use and maximize their lower half. Above I said my kid's pop got quicker when she got lower. Could it be because she could produce more force to the ground with her lower half because of the longer power stroke? Why do sprinters get deep into the blocks? To maximize force period.

Thanks for your response CK. We are all here to discuss, learn and share our opinions and experiences.

I think JSchro's athleticism is uncommon and her teachings don't translate nearly as well to the less elite athletes. I love her high energy and how she works and motivates the girls in the video clips I've seen of her instruction; however, when presented with questions about alternate mechanics, "I accomplished x and my students have accomplished x using these methods" isn't a very good explanation IMO. It will be interesting to see how/if her teachings mature and evolve.

I won't dispute the advice of the sports doctors and strongly recommend that their patient-specific advice by followed to the letter. I don't know how your DD caught/catches, but my DD has never complained of stance-related knee (shin etc.) pain, either before or after ACL recon 4 yrs ago (damn VB!).

I understand that men and women are different anatomically, particularly with respect to forces on the knee (different Q angle etc). Once a doubting Thomas, I have come to believe that boys and girls don't need to be taught different mechanics when it comes to hitting, throwing, or catching. As far as throwing goes, it's very similar to hitting, power is derived from the separation/stretch/resistance that gets created between the upper and lower halves coupled with proper sequencing (at present, Wasserman's throwing ebook seems to represent the cutting edge). All this, and particularly in recognition of women not being as physically strong as men, leads me to conclude that it is even more important for the ladies to use the most efficient techniques.

In DFP terms I'm an old dog, but this old dog is open to learning new tricks if the new tricks are shown to be better than the old tricks.

 

[C.K]

BuckeyeGuy, I'll proof read the post better next time some parts are all most incoherent the way I worded it, it came off as a tool move, sorry it should of been said differently. You are correct they are set up to maximize force( which is acceleration) specific to each runner, because what optimal for one may not be for the next.
Eric F:
That's a different game (squating)but to answer your question yes anything above 90 degrees is easier. Hence in that game anything below 90 is legal and in some disciplines you must go deaper than that.

My kid has been almost timed to death by her coaches, I know what her glove to release transfer is, her pop time low stance, ready stance, her runners on stance when she was younger, and what her overhand was with each stance. She just started catching a month ago, a year off and her pop dropped. Last 2 camps she was at both big-10 schools she had the fastest overhand and she's not 100% healthy. For the record it's due to Austin W. I had him analyze her about 6 months before the book came out. When she gets back to 100% he'll be getting a before and after video. I hope none of you think I'm closed minded because I'm not, and what works for my kid may or may not work with anyone else's.
don't have time to proof read so I apologize in advance

 

[djcarter1966]

Just thinking out loud, this board preaches Hansen principle to death when it comes to hitting what about catching.

Is Jen right? If you look at high level catchers what to their mechanics look like. I will grant you that at that level every catcher is not just another person on the team but probably also one of the more athletic kids on the team but still why would all the successful elite catchers fast pitch catchers catch one way but everyone get on here and preach something different.

Also maybe their is a difference between baseball and softball? Has anyone looked at video of MLB catchers versus Elite softball catchers. All I am saying is let's do a little analysis and then use the same principle that mimicking the best catchers in the game is probably a good place to start, just like hitting.

 

[Eric F]

Just thinking out loud, this board preaches Hansen principle to death when it comes to hitting what about catching.

Is Jen right? If you look at high level catchers what to their mechanics look like. I will grant you that at that level every catcher is not just another person on the team but probably also one of the more athletic kids on the team but still why would all the successful elite catchers fast pitch catchers catch one way but everyone get on here and preach something different.

Also maybe their is a difference between baseball and softball? Has anyone looked at video of MLB catchers versus Elite softball catchers. All I am saying is let's do a little analysis and then use the same principle that mimicking the best catchers in the game is probably a good place to start, just like hitting.

Yes. Let's use the Hanson Principle. Let's look at the very best catchers, the same way we look at the very best hitters. Do you consider the swings of D1 baseball or softball hitters the benchmark? I don't...unless they are using the same mechanics as what the best in MLB are doing. I guess a big part of the equation is in what arena you think "best" happens.

Even if we apply the Hansen Principle to catchers, we must also apply logic and reason, particularly in the area of catcher safety. When we do that, we can see a few things that the "best" might be able to do better. Along with that is the contention that catcher is the least-coached position on the field (Jen), and coaching - even at the MLB level - is the least-evolved when compared with pitching and hitting (Jay). Both Jen and Jay are trying very hard to change those trends.

 

[chazbz1]

This has been a great thread covering a lot of territory..... I wanted to address a couple of things CK has brought up

IMHO you can't do a good job catching drop anything from a high stance if its on the fringe. When the pitching gets good you'll be blocking 1 to 5 times a game at most for a drop ball pitcher but you'll be receiving 30+ drop pitches and a lot of them that catchers are going to have to work hard for if the pitcher is doing her job.

If were talking "runners on stance" the goal is to be prepared to prevent the runner for taking a extra base correct? Do you want your catcher to have to take a knee to get under every low pitch? Or would you like them low and still on their feet. All things being equal who will pop faster at that point. The kid on her knees or feet? Also the good teams will challange a good catcher once with their fastest runner if you pick her off their is usually no more challenges unless a ball is in the dirt or the catcher is no her knees.

My main concern is the "blanket statements" CK makes assuming that all catchers that use the higher hip "runner on" stance will react the same and have the same tendencies. That none of them can get a strike called on dropping pitches and that they must all take a knee going after low pitches. Perhaps he has seen this and he states this as his opinion. I know that it is not factual and calls for a great deal of assumption.

We specifically cover low pitches from both the no runner on and runner on stances with our catchers to understand how to present them as strikes to the umpire. No trickery, no dropping to their knee(s), just plain focused receiving. Catchers should understand why they receive and how they receive. They must also anticipate the pitch. One of our catchers has been so good at getting strikes called at ground level that opposing coaches have left the dugout to argue calls with the umpire. Catchers must simply be aware of and pay attention their body and learn how the utilize it for the skills they are dealing with. We have even developed specific drills for low pitches to aid our catchers handle low pitches appropriately.

It's not a matter of where a catcher's hips are that determines if they drop a knee or get a low strike... I see D1 catchers every year on TV dropping their knees to receive all types of pitches from low hip stances. (CK and I agree that planting a knee on the ground is not desirable unless you are blocking) It's a matter of TRAINING! No matter what stance a catcher uses, they need instruction on what to focus on to get it right.

I've seen good drop ball catchers go after border line pitches so low when they receive the're rear ends touched the ground to get the call. You don't get that call when your on a knee.

This too is an interesting "blanket statement" that is opinion based. I recently attended a conference in which a prominent D1 coach presented video drills of her catchers dropping their knee as they received drop ball pitches in order to better show them as strikes to the umpire! The coach wanted them to drop to their knee on purpose. Once again, I'm with CK that its a bad idea. But it's our opinions....

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

OT, and apologies, but I had a question for Eric/Chaz: just re-watching the NECC videos, and I'm wondering what the stated purpose is for having the thumb tucked into the fist vs. on the outside of the fist?

 

[Lenski]

To protect the tip and first knuckle of the thumb, plus it gives the thumb extra protection by the fingers acting like a barrier. IMO, the fist should be a loose fist so if the fingers do get hit the loose fist acts like a shock absorber, letting the fingers travel a bit upon impact, reducing the force of the impact.

 

[Lenski]

What's really in danger in this type of setup is the outer wrist and elbow. Catching's a tough position and you can't cover everything, no matter what setup you use.

 

[chazbz1]

BuckeyeGuy,
Watch the video below. Pay very close attention to the catcher around the 50 second mark. She has her thumb out of her fist when the pitch hits it. Most of the time we see throwing hand exposure from the shoulders turning as a catcher reaches for a pitch. Their knee may drop as well. Every tournament I go to I see catchers with their hand next to their glove on nearly every pitch. Almost always when they get ready to try and throw out a runner. Every year I hear of 2-4 or 5 catchers breaking their hands by having their hand exposed as the pitch crosses the plate. We only have two thumbs. If one of them gets broken, our hand is useless. A hand with a broken finger still can be used. So be extra careful to protect your catcher's thumbs.

[video=youtube_share;VQd8n8-RbQA]http://youtu.be/VQd8n8-RbQA[/video]

 

[Lenski]

Chaz

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the point you are trying to make since I agree that the thumb should be inside a loose fist.