Jen Schroeder - The Packaged Deal

[Eric F]

I haven't followed the entire thread. So I'm going to keep most of my opinions about catcher stance to myself, but I would like to stab at the item I've quote-grabbed above: 3 differences that I have always focused on between my 2 catchers (1 softball and 1 baseball) is the trajectory of the pitch, the distance to second, and the lead off factor. Because of those 3 items alone, my 2 catcher styles are slightly different.

Aw, c'mon. You can give me more than that! You've identified some differences in the game, which I agree are valid differences. How/why/what does a catcher need to do differently in softball to make themselves more effective or more efficient because of the differences? I'm not challenging you so I can disprove your opinion. I want to understand why my opinion might be wrong.

How/why does the pitch trajectory in softball require a different receiving stance?
How/why does the shorter base-path of softball require a different stance or throwing mechanic?
What happens with a lead-off before the pitch in baseball that mandates something different than the shorter base-path of softball?

 

[Eric F]

Just for the record I don't think either of you Fan Boys. My Daughter has did it both ways.

"FP catchers would need to be less mobile"

Bingo, If were talking "runners on stance" the goal is to be prepared to prevent the runner for taking a extra base correct? Do you want your catcher to have to take a knee to get under every low pitch? Or would you like them low and still on their feet. All things being equal who will pop faster at that point. The kid on her knees or feet? Also the good teams will challange a good catcher once with their fastest runner if you pick her off their is usually no more challenges unless a ball is in the dirt or the catcher is no her knees. At higher level of ball, hits are at a premium and coaches don't like getting their runners thrown out.

Remember there job is to get the pitch called as a strike also. I've seen good drop ball catchers go after border line pitches so low when they receive the're rear ends touched the ground to get the call. You don't get that call when your on a knee.

Clearly, you believe that a low stance is best for all situations in softball. If that's working for your DD, great. I hope she is having much success.

For my young catcher-beast, we are going down a road that I see as most effective for playing the position. When someone can show me why another way is better, we will adapt. So far, that hasn't happened, but I'm open to it.

Not that matters to you, but others are reading, too...The techniques taught by NECC does not promote dropping the knee in either a RO or NR stance because it creates a line with the shoulders that points away from the plate. The correct movement is to shift the hips behind the ball, which means remaining on your feet.

 

[C.K]

Clearly, you believe that a low stance is best for all situations in softball. If that's working for your DD, great. I hope she is having much success.

For my young catcher-beast, we are going down a road that I see as most effective for playing the position. When someone can show me why another way is better, we will adapt. So far, that hasn't happened, but I'm open to it.

Not that matters to you, but others are reading, too...The techniques taught by NECC does not promote dropping the knee in either a RO or NR stance because it turns the shoulders and creates a line with the arm that points away from the plate. The correct movement is to shift the hips behind the ball, which means remaining on your feet.

"Clearly, you believe that a low stance is best for all situations in softball"
Oh, no. I never said that. There is a reason I said "I think she's fine, probably catches for a rise ball pitcher." when I referred to Jen's student. I probably should of made pitcher purl.

To make it clear I'm not saying what NECC teaches is "wrong", I know what he teaches. Our catching coach recommended we make some tweeks to help her receive low pitches better to get more strike calls.

 

[Eric F]

"Clearly, you believe that a low stance is best for all situations in softball"
Oh, no. I never said that. There is a reason I said "I think she's fine, probably catches for a rise ball pitcher." when I referred to Jen's student. I probably should of made pitcher purl.

To make it clear I'm not saying what NECC teaches is "wrong", I know what he teaches. Our catching coach recommended we make some tweeks to help her receive low pitches better to get more strike calls.

You're right. With all the issues you brought up against using a RO/high stance, it seemed like you were strongly against it. My apologies for making that assumption.

In reference to Jen, the way things were presented at the clinic we attended, she made a very clear point about disagreeing with a RO stance and putting the throwing hand behind the mitt. In the video posted to her FB page, however, we're seeing a catcher using the high-hip position, and she is getting praise.

 

[Greenmonsters]

"Clearly, you believe that a low stance is best for all situations in softball"
Oh, no. I never said that. There is a reason I said "I think she's fine, probably catches for a rise ball pitcher." when I referred to Jen's student. I probably should of made pitcher purl.

To make it clear I'm not saying what NECC teaches is "wrong", I know what he teaches. Our catching coach recommended we make some tweeks to help her receive low pitches better to get more strike calls.

If you know what NECC teaches then you know that the priorities for a catcher are, from high to low:
1. receiving (i.e., allow an umpire to call a strike a strike)
2. blocking w/ runners on
3. throwing w/ runners on

IME, this priority list remains the same through all ages and levels as it is principally based on frequency of occurrence.

Whether in a no-runners on or a runner's on stance, a catcher shouldn't set up any different based on the type of pitcher. IMO, the best catchers (think Lecroy, Posey etc) and well-trained NECC catchers have no trouble receiving low pitches, strikes or not, and don't drop to their knee(s) unless they need to block a pitch that is in the dirt.

 

[C.K]

If you know what NECC teaches then you know that the priorities for a catcher are, from high to low:
1. receiving (i.e., allow an umpire to call a strike a strike)
2. blocking w/ runners on
3. throwing w/ runners on
IME, this priority list remains the same through all ages and levels as it is principally based on frequency of occurrence.

Whether in a no-runners on or a runner's on stance, a catcher shouldn't set up any different based on the type of pitcher. IMO, the best catchers (think Lecroy, Posey etc) and well-trained NECC catchers have no trouble receiving low pitches, strikes or not, and don't drop to their knee(s) unless they need to block a pitch that is in the dirt.

1. receiving (i.e., allow an umpire to call a strike a strike)
IMHO some pitches are recieved better in a lower stance but we all will probably agree to disagree
2. blocking w/ runners on
I see no advantage either way your feet have to get light to block[/SIZE]
3. throwing w/ runners on
I see no advantage either way, to me these last two its kid dependent[/SIZE]

 

[Greenmonsters]

1. receiving (i.e., allow an umpire to call a strike a strike)
IMHO some pitches are recieved better in a lower stance but we all will probably agree to disagree
2. blocking w/ runners on
I see no advantage either way your feet have to get light to block[/SIZE]
3. throwing w/ runners on
I see no advantage either way, to me these last two its kid dependent[/SIZE]

The vast majority of the top fastpitch catchers don't use the same mechanics as their best MLB counterparts. If you don't see that or don't want to objectively consider the reasons for those differences, some of which have been detailed here by others, just say so and we'll leave it at that. On the other hand, if you care to discuss something rationally and in detail, I think you'll find everyone will benefit even if no one ultimately changes their opinion. Here at DFP, whether its in the catching or any other forum, few are willing to accept something as the gospel just because someone, regardless of who they are or what they have done, claim it is so, doesn't hold water. I don't think anyone wants their DD to have to learn everything the hard way.

 

[C.K]

The vast majority of the top fastpitch catchers don't use the same mechanics as their best MLB counterparts. If you don't see that or don't want to objectively consider the reasons for those differences, some of which have been detailed here by others, just say so and we'll leave it at that. On the other hand, if you care to discuss something rationally and in detail, I think you'll find everyone will benefit even if no one ultimately changes their opinion. Here at DFP, whether its in the catching or any other forum, few are willing to accept something as the gospel just because someone, regardless of who they are or what they have done, claim it is so, doesn't hold water. I don't think anyone wants their DD to have to learn everything the hard way.

Well I didn't think I was being irrational.

Quote from Jen,
"Personally, I know I am faster from a lower squat, get more strikes for my pitcher's and am more athletic and mobile from this position." My daughter is the same way, my daughters pops times went up, I may get into that a little later.
Another Quote from Jen,
The concerning part was pain, so I began to do a little research. What I learned was that because of the differences in a male to female's hips, girls have more pressure on their shins-this is called tibia torsion. What tibia torsion does is put more pressure on a girl's knee caps. I went and spoke with 2 different sports doctors at UCLA who explained in detail why a female will complain about their backs, knees, and hips. It was eye opening.
I'm sure it was the same talk by the sounds of it I had with Dr.Cole(Chicago Bulls and Cubs doc),which is top expert in cartridge reconstruction in the knee. Which BTW my kid had done a little over a year ago on her knee and due to how she squated in the past not because there using different muscles and being sore .

A quote form you earlier this thread,

"Admittedly, I don't buy buy that physical differences between males and females and the scale of the BB/FP games merit significantly different mechanical approaches, so my bottom line question would be why would I want my DD to learn JSchro mechanics when it takes no more effort to learn Posey or Lucroy mechanics?"
I didn't respond to your last Question in thread "2nd base throw down" because I figured your mind was made and I'd be wasting time, so I'll lump it in here all together because its all in the same. So here is the quote

Quote Originally Posted by C.K View Post
I agree some can teach and some can't.

You can't compare the two, men and women are built way differently thank god. A lot transfers over but men are able to generate greater amounts of power from their upper body. But I agree study the best and them both just don't lump the men and women together.
Your response:
Doesn't this make it even more important for the ladies to use the most efficient techniques?

Some one said I left out "science" so I'll bring it in here. To answer your Question. Yup, but again we are built different structurally its science, no way around it. Men and women however generate force the same way. However women don't have the luxury of being able to generate large amounts of force with their upper body like men. Which they must use and maximize their lower half. Above I said my kid's pop got quicker when she got lower. Could it be because she could produce more force to the ground with her lower half because of the longer power stroke? Why do sprinters get deep into the blocks? To maximize force period.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

Some one said I left out "science" so I'll bring it in here...Why do sprinters get deep into the blocks? To maximize force period.[/COLOR]

What I said was that you failed to include science as a method of learning about the game.

As for sprinters, block setups are specific to each one, with the desire to strike the correct balance between forward acceleration and upward acceleration. And no sprinters anywhere are set with their legs at the angle of a low squatting catcher. Period.

 

[Eric F]

At a gym, doing squats, can you lift more weight if you start in a low squat or if you start with your thighs parallel with the ground?

I agree that some players learn how to block effectively from a low squat. Clearly, this has been proven. However, it makes a lot more sense to me, from a body mechanics standpoint, to shorten the required range of movement in the joints (within the confines of being able to perform the job) to achieve the same result.